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JSlonis

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Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #225 on: April 02, 2009, 03:12:07 PM »
Garland,

I'm going to stick to my own rating criteria for this dietary challenge. ;)

I don't think GD would replace a half eaten Vokey.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #226 on: April 02, 2009, 03:13:35 PM »
JSlonis:

Yes, CP is Cypress Point. At one time it was not even in the top 50 -- you'd have to go back to review the info. Now everyone concedes it's a top 5 in the States.

With no disrespect to Ridgewood -- you may want to eat your SW. I love the Paramus layout in a big time way and it showed plenty during the Barclays event but the depth of quality golf -- that Digest failed to itemize --is certainly present.  

I concur with your thoughts that FI is too high nationally -- a drop back to a second 50 position would be about right -- but not ahead of Plainfield or Garden City GC. The thing about FI is that the boat ride to get there and the isolation / views really add points to the place. A quality layout and a top 100 course -- but not that high.

Let me just add this -- I am amazed QR gets such a high consistent placement because I see Ridgewood being better than it -- but likely neither would make my personal top 100. Again, no disrespect to either of them but there are quite a few layouts within the USA that get far too little attention but are worthy of national acclaim.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #227 on: April 02, 2009, 03:23:05 PM »
Matt,

Back in the 60's Cypress Point was ranked in the 50's but since 1979 it has been ranked in the top 10.

Thanks, but I'm going to keep my SW in the bag.

Good points...

Garland Bayley

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Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #228 on: April 02, 2009, 03:27:39 PM »
Matt,

Back in the 60's Cypress Point was ranked in the 50's but since 1979 it has been ranked in the top 10.

Thanks, but I'm going to keep my SW in the bag.

Good points...

You have to remember that back in the 60s this was the 100 most difficult courses list.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #229 on: April 02, 2009, 03:35:26 PM »
Matt -

I do not agree with the totality of the Digest rankings, but I am one of 900. I tend to like firm and fast, brown is good type of layouts. I hate it when my ball picks up mud and we have not had rain in weeks. I would think the masses would be blown away by Black Rock and would agree it belongs where it does. I will let you know this summer.

I loved FI and thought they could have been the best greens I played. Is it top 10, probably not, but top 30 in my list. I have GCGC higher, but not Plainfield.

As for Five Farms, I don't get it. You should come down this summer and play and let me know your thoughts. Maybe you can explain how it fell in GW and not even in GD.
Mr Hurricane

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #230 on: April 02, 2009, 03:35:26 PM »
JSlonis:

I'll be very much interested in seeing the state ratings from Digest for NJ.

Frankly, I see Ridgewood as the better Tillie layout over the likes of Somerset Hills and both layouts at Baltusrol.

The Paramus-based layout can make a very solid case that it's a top five layout in the Garden State.

I also think the work done at Essex County should be noted as a top ten layout -- ditto the major improvements made at the Banks Course at Forsgate.

Like I said before -- no disrespect to Ridgewood but there are quite few number of outstanding layouts that Digest didn't even remotely mention.

I'll keep the salt on-hand for your SW. ;D

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #231 on: April 02, 2009, 06:17:06 PM »
Tim:

I have played it.

Exclusive indeed as you mentioned.

The TF layout is well conditioned but the real gist of the course stems with the final five holes -- which includes two solid par-3 holes -- a long true three shot par-5 for all but the longest of players and two solid long par-4's at the 16th and 18th holes.

I've played my share of TF layouts and TQatLQ is a well done member's layout -- stern in certain spots but not overly so. I would not rate it among the top 10 TF layouts I have played and it would not make my personal top 50 courses. I would go as far as to say that it would not make my top 100 here either in the States.

That's not to say the course is not good -- it's just not THAT good for such high acclaim.

In the Palm Springs area the course is indeed a worthy play if the opportunity presents itself. I'd rather play at Stone Eagle for the better consistent design.

Likely, the exclusivity of the place has helped garner favor among Digest raters.

Thank you, Matt Ward, for saying something complimentary about Stone Eagle on this website. I had come to believe that Captain Kirk, Tom Doak his-own-self and yours truly were the only CGA'ers to ever dare say nice things abou SE !!!  You coulda knocked me over with a feather !!

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #232 on: April 02, 2009, 06:37:51 PM »
jkinney:

Stone Eagle deserves to be highlighted given what Team Doak had to overcome with the site. I find his work there to be more consistent and to have the better array of holes when compared to The Quarry. TF did a fine job with Quarry but you have to wait a good deal for the really fine stuff to emerge.

One final comment on Stone Eagle -- I really like what Doak did with the final hole there. Makes you really have to nail a tee shot and when the pin is placed anywhere tight to the left side you have work cut out for you to get remotely close.

I also like the counterpoint with the long downhill par-4 4th and the uphill par-4 5th.

Jim:

I have played Black Rock and do love the course -- just not THAT much.

Jim Engh, in my mind, did an even better overall job with the likes of Four Mile Ranch because he didn't have to overdue the insertion with man's hands on the grounds. Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying FMR is a top 30-40 course in the USA but the qualities of the design show a working with nature not -- the Wizard of Oz qualities he demonstrated in ID.

In regards to FI -- we are splitting hairs. I like the layout plenty but when you hold it against what Hanse and crew did at Plainfield you will find me going the other direction with you. FI needs the scenery to hold its position. Plainfield wins with the better and more consistent design -- give Plainfield the scenery you see at FI and the Jersey course would be a top twenty potential candidate.

Jim, I like Five Farms but again when I stack up my personal top 100 I see the MD layout looking from the outside in. No disrespect to it -- likely if I can take up your offer I'll see firsthand for myself. Happy to have my mind changed. ;D


G Jones

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Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #233 on: April 02, 2009, 08:09:11 PM »
How on earth could Carmargo be outside the top 100 and yet the Prince Course at Princeville in Hawaii easily makes it.

It's not that the Prince Course is just not my cup of tea... it's that it is terrible. 9 Holes there are about as good as your average marriott resort course lost in the middle of Palm Springs.

Ok, so ANGC is no.1... a bit of controversy between people who are well informed... but even entertaining the idea that the Prince Course is this good is lunacy. It's so crazy that I'm second guessing myself and wondering if I have some as yet undiagnosed pathological hatred of the place. I suspect I don't... it's just terrible.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #234 on: April 02, 2009, 08:27:34 PM »
I think the more "exclusive" a course is, the higher it's rated by GD raters. Those "special places" have their reputation precede them whereas some new course doesn't except by the name of the architect.

That being said, I think it's high time  that GD did away the Top 100 list given the exponential rise inthe number of courses built since it was instituted.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #235 on: April 02, 2009, 09:24:15 PM »
Greg,

Couldn't agree with you more about the Prince. Funny thing is GW ranks it high on their list as well.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #236 on: April 02, 2009, 09:27:42 PM »
I'd never heard of Canyata previously.   Evidently one needs an invite directly from the owner to join.   

Is there a hidden Bonus category for Exclusivity? 

From a quick read, it seems most of the courses that rose on the list fall into the Tough Ticket category, but that might just be a hunch because Fisher's Island seems to be the only classic course of less than plush maintenance that improved it's position.

Jamie,

I noted Fisher's Island earlier and as much as I love and enjoy the course, I'd contend it simply moved up because of the obvious fascination GD seems to have with EXCLUSIVITY.  

It's the Studio 54 syndrome without the cocaine and debauchery.   ;)

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #237 on: April 02, 2009, 11:00:29 PM »
I'm hoping that thanks to the efforts of Golf Digest, NGLA will eventually slide down the list into obscurity and they will be forced to run a membership drive.   ;D

If that doesn't happen, then the list is completely irrelevant to me. 

Andy Troeger

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #238 on: April 02, 2009, 11:04:56 PM »
I have to believe that Ballyneal's and Chambers Bay's exclusion have to do with the slowness of the greens. Especially Ballyneal with how slow they were when they first opened and how much rater play it got. GD has mainly good players and many good players hate slow greens. It will be interesting to see in future years if those lower rankings hurt on going forward.

Question, if one rates the course again on a subsequent visit does the first rating stay on othe books or does it go away? Huck?

95% sure that the old rating gets replaced if one goes back.

igrowgrass

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #239 on: April 02, 2009, 11:13:53 PM »
How come the fall of Quaker Ridge?  33 to 81?  My apologies if this has already been discussed.

jkinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #240 on: April 02, 2009, 11:31:16 PM »
I'm hoping that thanks to the efforts of Golf Digest, NGLA will eventually slide down the list into obscurity and they will be forced to run a membership drive.   ;D

If that doesn't happen, then the list is completely irrelevant to me. 

Well said, John. Actually it's a fact that until 1985 NGLA had been left off the list completely because Bill Davis, the magazine's founder thought many of the holes were too quirky and there were too many blind shots. I wrote an article in 1984 for a magazine called "Club Ties" in Denver on the courses in the Hamptons in which I specifically quoted and refuted Davis. I sent it to him as a courtesy, since I was trashing him. The next year NGLA got ranked around 55th, as I recall, and then started to make its way eventually into the top 10. I suspect that the reason it fell down to 15th
 this year is because the mid summer conditioning over the last few years deteriorated due to shaving the course down far too much for the Singles tournament in June. This left the grass vulnerable to the onset of heat in July. This practice has been stopped for this year and on out. The National will regain its place in the top 10, provided Pelican Hills or Trump National Palos Verdes doesn't catch the eye of GD raters !!!!!!!

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #241 on: April 03, 2009, 12:07:42 AM »
Interesting point raised by a few on the "exclusive" side of the calculations with the latest Digest top 100.

I have to wonder if many of the raters really go off the beaten track and play the lesser known and more available courses that have really demonstrated solid qualities.

Digest has this desire to hang onto not only exclusive courses but clearly nearly all of them are also private. Quality design has certainly taken root with the many outstanding courses that were opened from the late '80s through just about recent times before the market collapsed and golf suffered with it.

Steve S also raisesd a good point -- the top 100 listing needs a few major tweaks. Candidly, I see a possibility that Digest could have an all-private listing and one that is completely available to the public.


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #242 on: April 03, 2009, 12:16:32 AM »
Interesting point raised by a few on the "exclusive" side of the calculations with the latest Digest top 100.

I have to wonder if many of the raters really go off the beaten track and play the lesser known and more available courses that have really demonstrated solid qualities.

Digest has this desire to hang onto not only exclusive courses but clearly nearly all of them are also private. Quality design has certainly taken root with the many outstanding courses that were opened from the late '80s through just about recent times before the market collapsed and golf suffered with it.

Steve S also raisesd a good point -- the top 100 listing needs a few major tweaks. Candidly, I see a possibility that Digest could have an all-private listing and one that is completely available to the public.



Matt,

What courses "off the beaten track" do you think are no brainer top 100 selections but aren't on the GD list. We know how you feel about Black Mesa, underrated publics in the Keystone state, and Glenwild. Please name some others.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #243 on: April 03, 2009, 12:39:00 AM »
Sean:

Allow me to flush out just the ones from mostly the mountain time zone because it's often underappreciated and certainly not visited by many.

Before going on -- allow me to make a small correction -- I think the public layouts in the Keystone State are VASTLY OVERRATED when held against the level of private designs in Pennsy.

Yes, my rapture for Black Mesa has been stated many times. I see it being among my personal top 100 for sure.

You also have places like Greywalls which Mike DeVries did in Marquette, MI. Few people will get there but the design given the terrain and budget is extremely well done and quite fun to play.

People have already mentioned the likes of Ballyneal -- clearly one needs to throw into the mixture a place like Kingsley -- also in MI. When I see the love that Digest raters give Whistling Straits and even Blackwolf Run -- I have to wonder what people are thinking when you can go to Green Lake and play such a stellar design in the likes of Lawsonia Links.

I am not a huge fan of Sutton Bay but it clearly has the goods to be a top 100 course when you size up the others Digest has mentioned. Again, the issue becomes how many people make the trek to Agar, SD.

Sean, AZ has a few courses of note. I have always been partial to the original 18 at Whisper Rock. Credit Mickelson and Gary Stephenson for a layout that is a tour de force creation of desert golf -- playable but will kick your butt should you simply fail to execute.

I see no reason why a place like Wild Horse is not cited for what it offers. My God, isn't there room for a layout that is so much fun to play and although it's far from being exclusive the design elements to require a real sense of shot control on so many holes there.

Yes, I do really like Glenwild from TF. The Park City area is not a golf hotbed just yet -- but if the economy does turn around there's a location that can offer terrain for even better golf designs.

Doak's Rock Creek in Deer Lodge, MT likely did not get enough raters to see it. I was really impressed with it -- among the 14-15 Doak courses I have personally played -- the cumulative nature of all the par-4 holes there is the finest I have played from his hand to date.

I also have to say this -- Jim Engh's work at Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO doesn't have the exclusivity that other designs of his that have been rated -- such as Black Rock and Sanctuary. But at FMR Engh didn't go "over-the-top with insertion of various man-made items -- there are no bunkers on the course yet the land and the manner by which you must handle an array of different green designs and configurations is really compelling stuff.

Sean, I also like what Greg Norman did with his layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. Yes, Greg has been known to go in a heavy-handed method at times but I can only hope what he did there will be a blueprint for future efforts. I also liked what he did at Doonbeg but others have opined less so.

I have also mentioned the qualities of a place like Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV. No doubt the classic design lovers will be repulsed by the place. It's clearly man-made to the max but the sheer imagination to bring to life a place in such a Mars-like environment goes far beyond for me at least what was done at Shadow Creek. It's Indiana Jones golf to the max.

There are likely a few others I can add as well -- but I hope if you get the opportunity you can play a few of the ones I mentioned. I will have to add a few of the ones I just listed are private -- Glenwild, Rock Creek, Whisper Rock, and a few others, but there are some really stellar layouts that have a public genesis that can be accessed.

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #244 on: April 03, 2009, 09:35:15 AM »
Matt -

I have not played Plainfield since the work was done so I need to get back. As for Five Farms, Foster did a wonderful job and you need to get back. You keep going to these off the path places, but you need to make the trip here just as I need to make the trip to Plainfield. Let me know.
Mr Hurricane

Sean Leary

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Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #245 on: April 03, 2009, 11:24:39 AM »
Sean:

Allow me to flush out just the ones from mostly the mountain time zone because it's often underappreciated and certainly not visited by many.

Before going on -- allow me to make a small correction -- I think the public layouts in the Keystone State are VASTLY OVERRATED when held against the level of private designs in Pennsy.

Yes, my rapture for Black Mesa has been stated many times. I see it being among my personal top 100 for sure.

You also have places like Greywalls which Mike DeVries did in Marquette, MI. Few people will get there but the design given the terrain and budget is extremely well done and quite fun to play.

People have already mentioned the likes of Ballyneal -- clearly one needs to throw into the mixture a place like Kingsley -- also in MI. When I see the love that Digest raters give Whistling Straits and even Blackwolf Run -- I have to wonder what people are thinking when you can go to Green Lake and play such a stellar design in the likes of Lawsonia Links.

I am not a huge fan of Sutton Bay but it clearly has the goods to be a top 100 course when you size up the others Digest has mentioned. Again, the issue becomes how many people make the trek to Agar, SD.

Sean, AZ has a few courses of note. I have always been partial to the original 18 at Whisper Rock. Credit Mickelson and Gary Stephenson for a layout that is a tour de force creation of desert golf -- playable but will kick your butt should you simply fail to execute.

I see no reason why a place like Wild Horse is not cited for what it offers. My God, isn't there room for a layout that is so much fun to play and although it's far from being exclusive the design elements to require a real sense of shot control on so many holes there.

Yes, I do really like Glenwild from TF. The Park City area is not a golf hotbed just yet -- but if the economy does turn around there's a location that can offer terrain for even better golf designs.

Doak's Rock Creek in Deer Lodge, MT likely did not get enough raters to see it. I was really impressed with it -- among the 14-15 Doak courses I have personally played -- the cumulative nature of all the par-4 holes there is the finest I have played from his hand to date.

I also have to say this -- Jim Engh's work at Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO doesn't have the exclusivity that other designs of his that have been rated -- such as Black Rock and Sanctuary. But at FMR Engh didn't go "over-the-top with insertion of various man-made items -- there are no bunkers on the course yet the land and the manner by which you must handle an array of different green designs and configurations is really compelling stuff.

Sean, I also like what Greg Norman did with his layout at Red Sky Ranch in Wolcott, CO. Yes, Greg has been known to go in a heavy-handed method at times but I can only hope what he did there will be a blueprint for future efforts. I also liked what he did at Doonbeg but others have opined less so.

I have also mentioned the qualities of a place like Wolf Creek in Mesquite, NV. No doubt the classic design lovers will be repulsed by the place. It's clearly man-made to the max but the sheer imagination to bring to life a place in such a Mars-like environment goes far beyond for me at least what was done at Shadow Creek. It's Indiana Jones golf to the max.

There are likely a few others I can add as well -- but I hope if you get the opportunity you can play a few of the ones I mentioned. I will have to add a few of the ones I just listed are private -- Glenwild, Rock Creek, Whisper Rock, and a few others, but there are some really stellar layouts that have a public genesis that can be accessed.


Thanks Matt. Can you answer my question though please,? Which of these courses is bonafide top 100...

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #246 on: April 03, 2009, 11:33:07 AM »
Sean:

I'll save that for my book ! ;D

All kidding aside -- I think my writing provided what you are seeking.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #247 on: April 03, 2009, 11:53:20 AM »
Sean:

I'll save that for my book ! ;D

All kidding aside -- I think my writing provided what you are seeking.

Matt,

All kidding aside, it didn't.

You rail about the shortcomings of the list and criticize the raters that are missing the boat by not getting to out the the way places, but you won't say which courses are missing from the list. There are hundreds of good courses Matt. I want to know the best that are being left off the top 100 list that are because the raters don't get to them.

Matt_Ward

Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #248 on: April 03, 2009, 12:13:50 PM »
Sean:

Here's a starting point ...

Ballyneal
Rock Creek *likely not on GD's because of early age
Glenwild
Black Mesa
Greywalls
Kingsley
Whisper Rock
Olde Kinderhook *terrific Rees Jones n Albany, NY -- missed by many!

I also like ...

Wild Horse *be good to add a place where fees are very low but the design offers so much for the public to see

Sutton Bay is also well done -- I don't care for the out and back routing but that's a small aside to what you see there.

Norman's Red Sky Ranch in CO is another. Jim Engh has plenty to offer as well. I like Black Rock and to a lesser degree Sanctuary but the real advancement on the Engh front for me is with Four Mile Ranch. Doesn't have the "exclusive" feel, but it's plenty of fun and you have a wonderful array of great greens and diverse holes.

I also included the likes of Wolf Creek. I like the wild ride theme there. No doubt it's like Thai food and when you have such a hot and spicey dish you're likely going to turn off the classic design devotees who prefer steak and potato type meals.

On the flip side -- I also like classic courses too. Lawsonia Links by Langford is well done and how it misses out being selected among the best in WI by the GD raters is another omission of big time proportion.

Sean, that's just a few. Like I said I concentrated plenty of my attention on the mountain time zone with a few others sprinkled in. No doubt there would be others added as well.

Mark Pritchett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Golf Digest Top 100 is out
« Reply #249 on: April 03, 2009, 12:16:13 PM »
Am I the only one who thinks Wolf Run is Top 100 worthy? 

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