[Adam Clayman]

I'll disagree with Chip (shocking I know) when he portends to know what the treehouse will howl at.

Let's compare two subtly different types of water hazards in an attempt to illustrate the difference between the creeks on Merion with the ponds on a hole such as the eighth at Sebonack?

The Merion creeks have lines which are craggy (not that linear) and not all that visibly clear from many angles. While the pond on S has nothing but a flat grade jarring the eye with it's uniform curvilinear circumference.  

back to topic, I found the 11th approach shot much more demanding. I sensed a similar feeling on the 11th at Quaker.

[TEPaul]

"Modern world of I.T. ?    So all this time I've been trying to channel Wayne on my Ouija Board, all I had to do was E-mail him?   "


Bradley:

You can certainly email him any time you want to or you could just talk to me on here. Wayne and I have developed a remarkable amount of I.T. symbiosis, if you get my Drifto Or maybe it's more symbiosis than just that; hard to say at this point. Sometimes he might think he's me and if he does I might I might need to consider being him a bit more. If I get some bills from GMGC I'm not familiar with I guess I'll need to be more careful with checking the details of my bills and the same may go for him with Merion. I'm not sure we actually need to broach this subject with our wives, at this point, but who can really tell what the future will bring-----don't you know!? We are from Philadelpia, the City of Brotherly Love, and some of us around here are very tight. This is in fact the polar opposite of that ridiculous notion and label put on us here known on this website as "The Philadelphia Syndrome." The people on here who came up with that label have never been here and I doubt they even know how to find Philadelphia! 

Thanks for your concern and interest,
and if there's anything you want to know
about Merion, don't hesitate to ask away,

T.E.W.M. Paul

[TEPaul]

"TEP it is difficult to see on the old photos but were the banks of the pond wall in the same style as now back in the 20's?"


JonW:

The banks on the pond or the stone walls? Are you asking about both #9 and #11?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Adam - interesting you compare 11 at Merion to 11 at Quaker... my favorite hole! What is the tee shot like at Merion? 11 at Quaker is one of the few on the course where driver isn't always the play. I do love how the fairway at quaker comes right up the creek in front of the green, it really makes you think about what kind of shot you want to leave yourself if you have to lay up. How far is the edge of the fairway from the green? Do you get blocked out by those trees if you miss your tee shot left?. My favorite part about 11 at quaker is how you can be on the left edge of the fairway and have to lay up on a hole that is 402 from the back!

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's a 1924 photo of Merion's 11th and 12th as they were right after Hugh Wilson designed them. 

It's difficult to tell the fairway lines, but they certainly look a bit broader...

[Chip Gaskins]

I'll disagree with Chip (shocking I know) when he portends to know what the treehouse will howl at.

uniform curvilinear circumference.  

back to topic, I found the 11th approach shot much more demanding. I sensed a similar feeling on the 11th at Quaker.

It is quite shocking you disagree with me Adam.

Nice description "uniform curvilinear circumference"...I assume that mean a round pond?

I too think the 11th approach shot is more demanding.  Sort of a longer version of TPC Sawgrass #17....very sharp edge around much of the green where it is hit it or take a drop.  I think it is much harder given the blind tee shot with a long iron to a sliver of fairway means you have a very high chance of hitting the approach shot out of the rough to a sharp edged green where bailing out in the bunker left leaves you with an up and down with water over the green.  It is a very very demanding second shot.

[Mike_Cirba]

Here's some pics of Merion's 9th during the 1916 US Amateur;

I'm betting the creek was not quite as tidy although it's tough to tell...

[D_Malley]

the nice thing about #11 is if you have a good caddy your tee shot should never end up in the rough on the down slope.

[TEPaul]

On all Flynn's 11th hole drawings there was substantial fairway area drawn in on the left and right in front of the green on each side of the creek as it approached the green and proceeded around to the right and behind it.

It was maintained as fairway early on but it went out slowly over the years and by about 1950 it was all maintained in rough grass in that area.

The interesting thing is Flynn had a very narrow tongue of fairway drawn in on all his 11th hole drawings right in front of the green between the wall and the front of the green. It looked to be a fairway cut height tongue of probably around 6 feet in width across the front of the green.

I don't believe that was ever done when that green was built in the early 1920s and the reason seems to be the width of the creek on Flynn's drawings were narrower than what got built there. The reasons for an increased creek width are probably fairly obvious----eg the need for more creek width in that area as most of the water off that entire side of the course south of Ardmore Ave needs to egress right down that creek and off the property behind that green.

It's always been a potential problem and apparently still is. Over the years excessive storm water has both trashed the green and its bunkering and put the green under water a couple of times.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sorry for re-posting this article, but I realized this evening that I didn't include a large section of it...

[Joe Bausch]

I thought a view from the tee of the 11th hole would be nice for those that have not had the privilege to see Merion.  The hole does go downhill and the landing area is blind, but the green is visible from the tee.  This pic taken on Halloween last year, and with the late color change, it was beautiful:



And who says the fairway is too narrow?!  Just stripe your tee shot like this, then throw a dart for the 2nd! 

[Kalen Braley]

I think Chip makes a really good point via the seemingly double standards on GCA.com.

While I like how the creek wraps around the right side of the green complex, that pond in front doesn't look too hot.

[Jon Wiggett]

TEP,

having read my first post I can see it wasn't all that clear. Were the edges of the pond at 9 stone walled back in the 20's or a natural earth bank? The present walls look a little twee to me but it is often the case that things look very different in real life as apposed to a photo.

Jon

[TEPaul]

JonW:

I'm not completely sure how early the stone walls buttressing the creek on #9 are. They could be as early as the late teens after that green was redone essentially the way it is now for the 1916 US Amateur.

But I can certainly tell you that type of stone wall buttressing on #9 and #11 aren't there just for aesthetic reasons; they very much fill a practical purpose. If the banks on the stream around #9 were just earthen the quantity and force of the storm water that comes through there from time to time might take a considerable amount of that green and its bunkering downstream with it.

[Adam Clayman]

Adam - interesting you compare 11 at Merion to 11 at Quaker... my favorite hole! What is the tee shot like at Merion? 11 at Quaker is one of the few on the course where driver isn't always the play. I do love how the fairway at quaker comes right up the creek in front of the green, it really makes you think about what kind of shot you want to leave yourself if you have to lay up. How far is the edge of the fairway from the green? Do you get blocked out by those trees if you miss your tee shot left?. My favorite part about 11 at quaker is how you can be on the left edge of the fairway and have to lay up on a hole that is 402 from the back!

Jaeger,
 The tee shots are nowhere near similar other than maybe the need to re-think driver. The tee shot on Merion's 11th is downhill, with most if not all of the fairway blind. If I had to guess.

I'd guess Wayneo never caddied  because the line he gave me was not where my mind's eye would've been, had it not been my virgin trek and truly blind. The only saving grace was that we both found the right rough. I however failed to extricate my ball satisfactorily enough to carry one of the little tributaries(?), let alone the length of the creek. My poor playing of the hole did not in any way influence my evaluation of the hole, as I see it as top notch, only with a haircut problem.

[TEPaul]

The tee shot club options on Merion's #11 are something like PV's #11. The point is there is a serious speed ramp/turbo boost past the top of the fairway you see from the tee.

If the course is firm and fast you have a pretty interesting club selection spectrum. You can take a long iron and just turbo boost it down the long fairway down-ramp or you could probably even take a driver and just fly it way down the flat fairway area over the hill.

Like on the 11th tee shot at PV that has the same turbo boost/fairway speed-ramp you won't believe how close a good long iron can get to a good driver even if that iron landed about 50-60 yards behind the driver.

I've played Merion hundreds of times over the decades and never once did I hit anything other than a long iron off that 11th Merion tee. Ahhh, the beauty and effective subtley "in play" of interesting topography on various golf holes! 

[Dan Herrmann]

One thing that's really cool about 9 green is that you need to be sure to hit your shot to the right place.  There are some  spots from which a 3-putt is actually darn good.

Merion East has fantastic flow to its holes.  9 is a tough one-shotter, 10 is a bet of a breather, 11 can rip your heart out, 12 is a 5-putt if you're dumb enough to hit above the hole, 13 is a wonderful pitch and then you hit the famous finish.  And its use of space is second to none - there's a lot of world class golf stuffed into a pretty small area up there.

But as far as 9 goes, I woudn't change a thing.    As far as 11 goes, I'd get it to the width seen when Bob Jones won the Grand Slam.  It's one of the world's most historic golf holes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Is that Tiger Woods hitting his shot into #11??   My word...that fellow almost looks like he knows what he's doing!?   

That couldn't be the same guy you played with yesterday, could it be?   

[Bradley Anderson]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think this photo of nine is from around 1924.

[Bradley Anderson]

I think this one is of Bobby Jones hitting from the 9 green right side bunker.
Look at how low the bunker hummock elevation is at this point.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

I posted that second one on the previous page...it's from 1916.

[Bradley Anderson]

This is the best photo I have found for illustrating how high they were able to raise the pond.
I'm thinking that they controlled this by closing the small weir dam in front when the creek rose.
And maybe this was only raised this high for tournament play?

[Bradley Anderson]

Getting back to my premise. This green was extremely difficult.
You could not run the ball in to this green.
And you had to fly it in with great accuracy because the contours fell away into the bunkers.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley,

I posted that second one on the previous page...it's from 1916.

So then if that is Bobby Jones hitting from the bunker, he's only 14 years old.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bradley,

That's correct...it's 14 year old Bobby.

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