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Sean Leary

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Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2009, 04:07:08 PM »
I have never heard why the swaths of rough are like they are. I do think they do not look great, especially on 8 and 17, as mentioned. But I do think that it helps some balls from going into the deep stuff. Not mine, as I make sure that I fly it WAY in there, especially right on 5 and left of 9. If you are running out of Pro V's look there for mine. There is plenty.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2009, 04:16:28 PM »
I love the defoliated trees behind the third green in John's picture.  The winter storm of 2008 that took down a number of specimen trees and greatly defoliated a number of others was great for the course.  It opened up a lot of new vistas.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

brad_miller

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Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2009, 04:16:57 PM »
Regarding the prior google photos a significant amount of land ~400 acres out back of the 14th green/15th tee is still owned (I believe) by a New Yorker that at one time considered building another course.  As far as I know those plans have been on hold since the early 2000's.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2009, 04:19:39 PM »
JohnM:

Don't get me wrong; I think you're a wonderful golf course photographer and I certainly thank you for all the explanatory photos you've provided on this website.

No offense taken at all!  I was just agreeing that the picture doesn't always jibe with what the eyes take in.   It's not at all uncommon for me to see photos that I've taken and not remember that view at all.  

Your commentary on the hole is spot on.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2009, 04:27:29 PM »
I miss the tree by the clubhouse and the one behind 6 tee.

There has been talk of changing the area behind 7 green and 1 tee box. Enclose 7 green with a dune surrounding it.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2009, 06:09:34 PM »
Adam:

How do you know the reason they have those ultra wide rough swaths on some of those holes was done and is being continued to prevent balls from going into the gunk? Did someone out there who has something to do with the golf course tell you that?

I asked Bill Coore about that one time and he said he wishes they would take those fairways out to the gunk and I think he said he thought those swaths may've just been left over from the last USGA championship there or something. I think he even said: "Don't you have some friends at the USGA, so why don't you call them up and tell them to call PD and ask them to consider taking them back out to the widths they were probably designed to have?"

Tom, I can't point a finger to the definitive person. I've met both Stan George and Doug Pedersen, so it is possible it came from one of them. However, it is much more likely something I read on here from one or more of their members. I'd agree with Mr Coore about the uber fairway width. If one's ball found the junk because of a bounce that would be just too damn bad for them.

I was there less than a month after the Senior event where Loren Roberts shot that amazing 62, and Stan had already returned the fairway width. He described it as about 5 yards. (maybe a little more) Needless to say it was hardly noticeable.

I did have one original thought while I was out there. It was in reference to the two little bunkers on the right side of the 13th fairway. They looked to me to be out of place and not in character with the remainder. Well, Those were Doug's addition to the design because so many members where hitting their balls there and losing them in the gunk.

A couple of holes have those delicious bunkers on the inside corner of the dogleg. A look JN's team repeated at Dismal River.

The second hole at PD appears to have inspired Bill and Ben, because I have felt the similarities on a couple of their one shotters built since their work there. 


« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 09:34:24 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2009, 06:50:00 PM »
Aerial for reference - area in question squared in yellow.  The maint. sheds are behind the 10th green and alongside the 11th tee beyond the pond.  Definitely not room for 9 holes there, though.



They also own the land to the upper right of 13 and 14.  I did a routing for a new nine for them in 1985 or 1986.  I recall that many of them wanted to take 8 and 9 and put that in the new nine, but I refused to consider that, figuring it would be hard to match them up.

There are drainage problems there, Cottonwood Hills and even Sand Creek Station - the water table is only a few feet below the surface and it flows hard,
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #82 on: March 27, 2009, 11:50:12 AM »
Jeff, were there any houses on the courses back in 1985? Maybe just the ones on 16 and 17?

The nice homes way right of 5 was on land that was owned by the club.

tlavin

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2009, 11:55:59 AM »
Thank you, Mr. Mayhugh for the photograph and the satellite image.

For those of you who haven't played it, Prairie Dunes has this vegetation that is locally and somewhat lovingly referred to as "gunsch".  It is absolutely the worst plant/arboreal/aboriginal vegetation that I've ever encountered on a a golf course.  Then there are the burrowing animal holes caused by the prairie dogs.  A ruling on one of these devils allowed Allen Doyle to get a good drop and preserve his victory at the Senior Open a few years back, if my recollection is correct.

For a point of comparison, if you think the iceplant at Spyglass is a sticky wicket of a piece of vegetation, it's like fairway grass compared to the gunsch.

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #84 on: March 27, 2009, 12:45:04 PM »
For a point of comparison, if you think the iceplant at Spyglass is a sticky wicket of a piece of vegetation, it's like fairway grass compared to the gunsch.

How does it compare to Gorse?
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #85 on: March 27, 2009, 12:52:37 PM »
When I was out there----I think it was in the summer of '07, they were in the process of ripping out some of that "gunsch" between the holes. Between #17 and #18 was one example.

If they would just get rid of those wide swaths of light rough on either side of some of those really wide hole corridors and return it to fairway, I would even recommend they let all that "gunsch" between the wide fairways grow back up.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #86 on: March 27, 2009, 01:08:46 PM »
For a point of comparison, if you think the iceplant at Spyglass is a sticky wicket of a piece of vegetation, it's like fairway grass compared to the gunsch.

How does it compare to Gorse?

Nothing compares to gorse.

Gorse has a 0% chance of hitting out of it.  Gunsch, depending on the season and where they are in the multi-year burn cycle, is get-outable sometimes.

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #87 on: March 27, 2009, 02:14:34 PM »
TP,

We know what Bill Coore thinks about the rough (based on what you said earlier) what did your playing partners think of the idea?

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #88 on: March 27, 2009, 02:21:16 PM »
brad:

Well, I believe I put it in an email to the three I went out there with and I believe I copied the GM on it. I don't believe I got a response from any of them so I have no idea what they thought of that suggestion but seeing as I got no response at all I suppose a fair and logically minded person could conclude they didn't think much of it.  ;)

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #89 on: March 27, 2009, 05:24:41 PM »
TP

To bad but sounds like your assumption is correct. (you will have to mention this to BC/Ben/Dave A) How about back to your course review it is wonderful as I have always enjoyed and learned from your take on things.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #90 on: March 27, 2009, 05:29:02 PM »
Brad,

Are you planning on making it out this year? Missed you at the Craig last fall.

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #91 on: March 27, 2009, 05:33:54 PM »
Almost headed out this weekend but then saw the weather. Hope to get out in next 6 weeks. Saw you might bite the bullet and include Huck, that would be something not to be missed. I want to see his hole by hole with Sand Hills with no credit given to all the other stuff that is so great there. Important that he gets no coaching from DR. Gene.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #92 on: March 27, 2009, 05:35:59 PM »
BM,

Heading out Masters/Easter weekend and Memorial Day. Hope the snow melts.

Tom Huckaby

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #93 on: March 27, 2009, 05:40:52 PM »
Almost headed out this weekend but then saw the weather. Hope to get out in next 6 weeks. Saw you might bite the bullet and include Huck, that would be something not to be missed. I want to see his hole by hole with Sand Hills with no credit given to all the other stuff that is so great there. Important that he gets no coaching from DR. Gene.

Sean has invited me - and very nicely so - but there is zero chance I will ever get out there.  I do not get to travel any more.

Curious though what you mean, Brad.  What would count and what would not, in this comparison?

Remember I just play the game.

TH

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #94 on: March 27, 2009, 05:46:54 PM »
What doesn't count: food, wine, lodging and that you see nothing but Ben's porch. That said PD's food is pretty good. My post should have had a  :)

Tom Huckaby

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #95 on: March 27, 2009, 05:50:17 PM »
What doesn't count: food, wine, lodging and that you see nothing but Ben's porch. That said PD's food is pretty good. My post should have had a  :)

OK.. except for the view,which does count since I do have sight - those don't effect the assessment of Sand Hills either, not as a golf course - but I get what you mean.  Just I heard all of that was pretty great at PD also....

Oh well, the world will never know. 

Just do understand once again... the course does look plenty great to me.  9 bordering on 10... I have no quibbles.  It was just the "tons of fun" comment that had my eyebrows raised... and I have even been convinced that such may well be a fair assessment.

So you all really have nothing to prove to me.  But dammit the access wh*re in me is saying "shut up you idiot, you're gonna lose all invites..."

 ;D
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 05:54:48 PM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #96 on: March 27, 2009, 06:14:59 PM »
"How about back to your course review it is wonderful as I have always enjoyed and learned from your take on things."


Ok brad:


#4 hole:

I felt like there's a very open, visible and comfortable feel to how #4 and the walk up to it after hitting the tee shot sort of just flowed out diagonally and openly from the back of #3 green.

I can't remember the yardage of this hole exactly, maybe 175 to 180. I think I hit something like a 5 iron each day.

To me the basic shot value theme of this hole is it's uphill and you have to really appreciate just how much or where the pin is, particularly since its right side is a very good and effective diagonal that's bunkered on the right and then falls down the hillside pretty sharply from there. So the point is if you want to get up into at least the middle the club selection probably requires more than most think given that rightside greenside diagonal has to be carried as well as the effective yardage adjustment for the height of the green surface. In other words, if it is 185 yard actual I would think it would play in neutral conditions just north of 200 to the middle and more to the back half.

The green surface is pretty interesting but it's a basic left to right and back to front flow that just works with the entire hillside the green is beautifully set into. With putting on this green coming back down to a pin or above it from the left can be pretty ticklish.

Earlier on this thread someone said the 2nd green is too much like the 4th green or those two greens remind him too much of each other. I don't see that and I don't agree with it. The 2nd is sort of set straight into its hillside and the deal is to just carry the steepness and bunkering in front and try not to get too far above a pin but the 4th's orientation is its set sort of diagonally into and along its hillside and the tee shot angle picks that up well on the all important diagonal green to tee orientation.

But if there is any green similarity on that golf course I'd have to say it's the fairly remarkable similarity (at least to me) in look, positioning (set in just below a similar ridgeline, actually the far end of the same ridgeline), bunker arrangement, green slope and flow and similarity of approach shot diagonal orientation and shot values of #8 green with this one!

To me it's pretty obvious and certainly interesting as this one is a Press Maxwell (added when the course went from nine to eighteen) and #8 is a Perry Maxwell from the original nine hole course but both are set right into the same ridgeline in about the same way.

Of course #8 is a just wonderful fairly lengthy sharp dogleg right par 4 and this one is a medium length par 3.



 
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 06:22:33 PM by TEPaul »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #97 on: March 27, 2009, 06:26:20 PM »
Agree completely,  of particular interest is your point between #2 and #4. Also found interesting the similar feel to #8. I had not thought of that.

Earlier on this thread someone said the 2nd green is too much like the 4th green or those two greens remind him too much of each other. I don't see that and I don't agree with it. The 2nd is sort of set straight into its hillside and the 4th's orientation is its set sort of diagonally into and along its hillside and the tee shot angle picks that up well on the all important diagonal.

TEPaul

Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #98 on: March 27, 2009, 06:45:22 PM »
Hole #5:

This one is obviously a pretty solid straight-away par 4 from a pretty elevated tee (along that same ridgeline) to a green set out from the ridgeline and above the mid-body approach area all along the hole.

The green has some back to front interest and you don't want to be long.

I sure do hope the fact that I screwed up my tee shot in exactly the same way and in exactly the same place three days running is not effecting my opinion of this hole (again thank God the other fellow who played so well played this hole well so I could see it and appreciate how to play the hole properly) but there was just something sort of uninspiring about this hole to me and certainly in comparison to all the rest out there.

I'm not sure what Press's par 5 iteration in this hole's basic position was all about but I sure would like to see it on paper anyway. Obviously Press had his green position for this hole sort of locked in (whether as a par 4 or par 5) because at the next tee he had to pick up again with Perry's nine hole course that sequenced from present #2 green to present #6 tee. 

PS;
This is one of the holes there I feel strongly the wide rough swaths should be cut back to the "gunsch." It would just look a lot better and a lot cooler and that left bunker could look a lot more tempting too with fairway right past it.

This is another tee shot that gives you a feeling of power because it is sort of exhilerating up there above the length of the hole below. You just feel like you want to hit the tee ball really hard and maybe that's exactly why I screwed up three tee shots over three days in the same way in the same place---left!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2009, 06:52:14 PM by TEPaul »

brad_miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Prairie Dunes CC
« Reply #99 on: March 27, 2009, 06:58:05 PM »
TP,

I have always felt that a tee slightly down the hill to the right of the current tee would yield a much better look giving the tee ball more of a diagonal look. This might also allow the hole to play longer on downwind days. I suspect this might have been where the par 5 tee would be and it might have been close to the green site if they combined 3 and 4. I remember having a conversation with Jake Carey at the Blue Duck and remember him (I believe) feeling the same way about the tee. I have played my second shot with everything from a 3 wood to 8 iron. Tom, I suspect most of you comment about the hole relates to the tee shot and gunch and not the second shot?