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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #75 on: March 26, 2009, 12:52:06 PM »
to clarify, I'm looking for a link to the Doak Scale.

Thanks

Niall

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #76 on: March 26, 2009, 12:54:19 PM »
Niall,

Here is the scale:

Doak Scale:

0-A course so contrived and unnatural that it may poison your mind, which I cannot recommend under any circumstances. Reserved for courses that wasted ridiculous sums of money in their construction, and probably shouldn’t have been built in the first place.

1-A very basic golf course, with clear architectural malpractice and/or poor maintenance. Avoid even if you're desperate for a game.

2-A mediocre golf course with little or no architectural interest, but nothing really horrible. As my friend Dave Richards summed one up: “Play it in a scramble, and drink a lot of beer”.

3-About the level of the average golf course in the world. (Since I don’t go out of my way to see average courses, my scale is deliberately skewed to split hairs among the good, the better, and the best).

4-A modestly interesting course, with a couple of distinctive holes among the 18, or at least some scenic interest and decent golf. Also reserved for some very good courses that are much too short and narrow to provide sufficient challenge for accomplished players.

5-Well above the average golf course, but the middle of my scale. A good course to choose if you’re in the vicinity and looking for a game, but don’t spend another day away from home just to see it, unless your home is Alaska.

6-A very good course, definitely worth a game if you’re in town, but not necessarily worth a special trip to see. It shouldn’t disappoint you.

7-An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning, and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

8-One of the very best courses in its region (although there are more 8’s in some places, and none in others), and worth a special trip to see. Could have some drawbacks, but these will clearly be spelled out, and it will make up for them with something really special in addition to the generally excellent layout.

9-An outstanding course – certainly one of the best in the world – with no weaknesses in regard to condition, length, or poor holes. You should see this course sometime in your life.

10-Nearly perfect; if you skipped even one hole, you would miss something worth seeing. If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Drop the book and call your travel agent – immediately."

                                                                   


Tom Huckaby

Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #77 on: March 26, 2009, 01:21:32 PM »
That is the short version of the Doak scale.  However as per my post above.. the author agreed with a clarification regarding the real meaning of 10.  It should be edited to state:

10-Nearly perfect; each hole at the very least adds some value to the course as a whole.  If you haven’t seen all the courses in this category, you don’t know how good golf architecture can get. Drop the book and call your travel agent – immediately.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #78 on: March 26, 2009, 02:51:40 PM »
The main reason I'm interested in the results of Ian's poll is that he's doing it for the first time with a new group.  These are always the most interesting results.  By contrast, the magazines' polls are old news ... the panelists know approximately what the list is supposed to look like, and so it does, with a 5-10% change based on new courses coming in and new voters replacing old.

There's a lot of "groupthink" in all rankings which tends to constrain the range of results.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #79 on: March 26, 2009, 03:18:09 PM »
The main reason I'm interested in the results of Ian's poll is that he's doing it for the first time with a new group.  These are always the most interesting results.  By contrast, the magazines' polls are old news ... the panelists know approximately what the list is supposed to look like, and so it does, with a 5-10% change based on new courses coming in and new voters replacing old.

There's a lot of "groupthink" in all rankings which tends to constrain the range of results.

Tom, don't you think largely the same phenomenon will play out here only with a slightly broader range for variance?  I suspect that, as a group, we are heavily influenced (both consciously and unconsciously) by a generally obsessive fascination with the various rankings. 

Ed

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #80 on: March 26, 2009, 06:07:14 PM »
Sean - I'm not naive enough to think I will change yours or anyone's mind on this DG.  It may be better for Ian if you recluse yourself from this exercise.

Jc

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #81 on: March 26, 2009, 07:11:18 PM »
Ed:  I don't know what the results will be, that's why I'm interested to see them.

Whereas, with the latest GOLFWEEK rankings for example, I could have predicted most of the changes pretty accurately.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #82 on: March 26, 2009, 08:22:45 PM »
Sean - I'm not naive enough to think I will change yours or anyone's mind on this DG.  It may be better for Ian if you recluse yourself from this exercise.

Jc

Jonathon

I humbly apologize for not acknowledging any course as a 10 when I didn't believe that I had played such a course.  This is clearly a breach of your rater etiquette for which I have no defensible position.  I would be greatly appreciative if you could please enlighten me as to which course(s) deserve a 10.  I will then make provisions to alter my scoring sheet accordingly. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #83 on: March 27, 2009, 08:11:21 AM »
Kalen/Tom,

Many thanks for that, now I can get down to the serious business of voting and the less serious business of telling Mr Doak where he's got his scale wrong.

Niall

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #84 on: March 31, 2009, 06:21:48 PM »
*Bump*.  Over 140 responses so far.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #85 on: March 31, 2009, 08:41:14 PM »
Ian,
Great job, finally outwaited the load time. 102 courses, 16 9+.
When you do stats can you include # of courses rated and average rating per rater.

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #86 on: April 01, 2009, 12:01:56 AM »
Sure Pete, I should be able to provide that as well.  If I remember...

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #87 on: April 01, 2009, 12:04:51 AM »
When will an update or the final voting tabulation be released?
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #88 on: April 01, 2009, 01:37:19 AM »
Paul, no information will be posted until the end of the voting process.  You should expect this to take several weeks, as I'd like to give everyone a chance to vote.  Also, it will depend on how busy my schedule is since I have to manually verify everyone's membership and contact voters who may have made mistakes.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #89 on: April 01, 2009, 07:25:08 AM »
Ian - what's the avergae number of "courses seen" for your 140 posters?  JC

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2009, 12:11:54 AM »
Ian - what's the avergae number of "courses seen" for your 140 posters?  JC

And, short of stopping and counting them all, is there a way to tell how many we have voted for?

Thanks for doing this, by the way....
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2009, 11:02:14 AM »
Since we are making requests: I was wondering how many of the courses received a 10, and how many received a 9. 

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2009, 01:55:57 AM »
I'll try to get that info to you guys by this weekend.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #93 on: April 05, 2009, 09:55:28 PM »
Is there a deadline for voting?

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2009, 10:27:39 PM »
---
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 02:40:24 PM by Ian_Linford »

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2009, 02:40:01 PM »
*Bump*!

I am thinking mid-June will be the best time to close off voting as I'll have a couple weeks free to sort out all the ballots (since it's in two parts I need to make sure that each applicant has filled out both.  I also need to confirm member ID's).

Jonathan, the average number of courses rated is 48.

Paul, every course on the list has been rated already, although I haven't checked any voters' identities yet.

Jerry, I'll have to think of a way to do that in excel without looking through every single vote.  Any suggestions?

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2009, 03:04:50 PM »
Ian - you'll get population histograms from me when I process the numbers. 

An average of 48 votes for the 400-some courses??  That's a solid base.  How many courses have less than 10 votes?  Less than 5 votes??  These are where the problems will lie.

JC

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2009, 03:13:33 PM »
Jonathan, what do you mean by "where the problems lie?"

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #98 on: April 28, 2009, 04:11:04 PM »
Jonathan, what do you mean by "where the problems lie?"

I would imagine he means the sample was not large enough and may affect the veracity of the results.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vote Now: World's Greatest Courses Ballot
« Reply #99 on: April 28, 2009, 04:19:11 PM »
OK Mark, you understand wine rating!

Are you sure he didn't mean "whine" rating?

« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 04:53:40 PM by Bill_McBride »