13th at Reserve Vineyards - North (Cupp) - A conversation focus

[Pete_Pittock]

There is probably a hole at your course that draws the most conversation for a variety of reasons. These can be good or bad. Most conversation at Bandon Dunes is on 4, 5 and 13. Pacific Dunes coalesces on 13. Bandon Trails 14, etc.

  At the Reserve Vineyards North Course near Hillsboro OR , designed by Bob Cupp, its discussions revolve around #13. It was originally #4 and the last hole on the front nine where a birdie was in the cards on a daily basis.   The card on the hole is 335/323/285/277. If there was a template among famous holes it would be #3 at Royal Adelaide, but that green has less slope and a gentler berm .
The tee shot easily crosses a ravine and avoids large trees on the left which might block a play directly at the green. Aim at the bunker or just left.


The hole favors a long drive (240+) which remains in the fairway. This shot opens up the green as seen in this picture taken from the right edge of the fairway on the outside of the dogleg elbow.

 
From this angle you play up the length of the green, which has a diagonal berm protecting the left front, and a 10 foot plus collection area to the right. The green slope left to right from this angle and many balls roll off right and down, down, down.
    If you drive short or to the left you have a difficult task. This picture shows the task from 100 yards
 
 The rough covered berm is between you and the hole and obscures half the flagstick (red flag 3/4 right). The berm's backslope and the green run away from you to the collection area. The green narrows to about 15 yards and the only safe plays are to the extreme right and left edges of the green.
    This next from a distance photo shows the hole from the rear emphasizing the berm and collection area. The flag is just left of the collection area and the tee can barely be discerned in the background near the flag. While closely mown and puttable there are times the ball must be pitched to avoid rough and the green has a false back of 3-5 yards.

    It is not a bad hole but it plays extremely differently for the longer vs shorter hitter, just frustrating for my game unless it is very firm and fast or I move forward to the reds.


Chip away, I'll be gone for 48 hrs starting Sunday evening.

Comments?

What about your course's nomination as a conversation piece?.

[Richard Choi]

I hate hate hate hate this hole.

It was after this hole that I pretty much walked off the course. It is on my top 5 worst course ever list.

[JohnV]

Different strokes for different folks Richard.  I love this hole.  It gives lots of different options off the tee.  Layup and leave the blind shot with a very shallow target.  Try and hit it up to leave the open shot up the length of the green.  Or for the bigger hitter go for it, but come up short and have a real tough pitch over the mounds.  A little more trouble on the drive might be desirable, but otherwise I love the hole.

If I have a least favorite hole at the Cupp course it is the short par 4 on the other 9 that is over the water off the tee.   Peter which hole is that?  Right along the back fence.

[Pete_Pittock]

Richard,
Why?

John,
   That is hole #4, which has a 180+ carry off the white tees. If you didn't carry the hazard  they had a drop circle about even with the end of the hazard. In the last year they opened a new red tee at hazard's edge which also serves as a proper drop area.

   Would #13 be better served with two tee boxes, rather than four? Shorter hitters could get a better angle on the second shot. Medium hitters from the front may have the hole become driveable. Longer hitters  would face more options.
   As it plays, the correct shot challenges the left side of the fairway to get a shorter approach, but hitting the left rough begs a bogey. 

[Jeff Doerr]

The pro length player (not me!) can take the tee shot up and over the firs on the left. A shot past the green actually leaves an approach ot a green that then slopes back to front.

One thing I will say is that this hole always makes me think when I step onto the tee and when I hit my approach.

I applaud this hole as a truly unique creation of a reachable par 4. It is very different, but very memorable.

[Anthony Gray]

  What's not to love. Variety is the spice of life. I bet it is unique compared to the other holes.

  Anthony

[Richard Choi]

The pictures do not do justice on how bad the hole is.

You have to drive a long way (risking running out of the fairway) for you to have ANY view to the green. If you lay up around 160 yards to 200 yards like what most people will do, you will have NO IDEA where the green is.

Even looking at the yardage book, there is absolutely no visual cue whatsoever to tell you where the green is let alone where the pin is located. you have to walk up 50 yards and turn 90' to the left to see where it is.

I don't mind blind approaches, but you gotta at least give the people some idea where the hole goes. Not only that, you have a view of the green for the next hole, so you end up shooting towards that before realizing you are playing the wrong hole.

Bad bad bad design.

[Pete_Pittock]

Richard,
     In order to drive through the fairway you need about a 280 yard drive. If you go through the fairway you have a shot from the proper angle, and less than 75 yards long.
     I don't see laying up any further back than the 100 yard pole, which is a tee shot slightly longer than 200. Very, very few players voluntarily do this.
You are much better off letting it fly with a long club.
     The flagstick with its red, white, or blue colored flag is clearly visible.
I hate the white flag location.
     You have a point about the visibility of the 14th green being misleading. When the original course rating party went I stood in the middle of the 13th green as a reference point and they asked me what I was doing. I guess they didn't think I had any local knowledge of my home course.
I will suggest they plant a tree. (The 14th green is where I took the last picture.)
      I hope you have played the course again. Contact me when you want to try it next time.   

[Richard Choi]

I was playing with 2 other people that day. I hit a 5 wood about 210 in the middle of the fairway. My partners both hit fairway woods about 180 and 200. We walked around for about 5 minutes trying to figure out where the green was.

There is absolutely no visual cue whatsoever to clue you in on where the green is. We had a yardage book and we still could not figure it out. We ended up hitting to the 14th green even though the yardages were way off.

That was pretty much the last straw. I pretty much shut it down and we skipped the 17th and 18th holes.

This course is the case study for my biggest golf architecture pet peeve - non-playable playing areas.

Every hole is lined with random clusters of long grass where even if you barely dribble in you will never find it. And since many landing areas are blind and these abominations are literally everywhere, you will end up going back and reteeing the ball (if you dare pissing off the group behind you) throughout your round. It is like playing a course chock full of random ponds located everywhere, except that you have no option of dropping the ball.

I don't know how anyone could enjoy playing this course.

In comparison, I really like the South course. I have played there almost every time I am in Portland.

[Pete_Pittock]

Richard,
A flag and flagstick are clearly visible. The fairway is cut to the green. The fairway is not cut to the green on 14. I prefer the North course to the South course.
You are still welcome to call me when you are in town.

[Matt Bielawa]

I was playing with 2 other people that day. I hit a 5 wood about 210 in the middle of the fairway. My partners both hit fairway woods about 180 and 200. We walked around for about 5 minutes trying to figure out where the green was.

There is absolutely no visual cue whatsoever to clue you in on where the green is. We had a yardage book and we still could not figure it out. We ended up hitting to the 14th green even though the yardages were way off.

That was pretty much the last straw. I pretty much shut it down and we skipped the 17th and 18th holes.

This course is the case study for my biggest golf architecture pet peeve - non-playable playing areas.

Every hole is lined with random clusters of long grass where even if you barely dribble in you will never find it. And since many landing areas are blind and these abominations are literally everywhere, you will end up going back and reteeing the ball (if you dare pissing off the group behind you) throughout your round. It is like playing a course chock full of random ponds located everywhere, except that you have no option of dropping the ball.

I don't know how anyone could enjoy playing this course.

In comparison, I really like the South course. I have played there almost every time I am in Portland.

I just played this course last week.  Given that this hole really annoyed me, I decided to use the search function to see if I was alone.  Clearly, I'm not!  I was annoyed for the same reasons Richard was.  However, I'd say it was even worse in that I hit to the wrong green!  I hadn't done any research on the course and was playing as a single.  When you get out to the middle of the fairway, there's a green right in front of you.  The stick in the middle of the fairway said 100 yards to the hole.  My laser said 150.....hmmm, maybe they screwed up and put the wrong color stick in the middle of the fairway???  I walked around for quite a while trying to find a sprinkler head to confirm, but for the life of me, couldn't find one.  So, the laser must be right, and I hit to the green right in front of me, 150 yards away.  Only after walking about half-way to my ball did I realize my blunder when a random green appeared to my left.  I had hit to the par 3 14th by mistake!!!

[Richard Choi]

Matt, I knew there was a reason I liked you from the very first time we met...

[JNC Lyon]

I don't mind blind approaches, but you gotta at least give the people some idea where the hole goes.

The golfer has no indication of where the green is on this second shot. Is this, too, a bad design?

[Richard Choi]

No, because it is not surrounded by identical mounds in your entire field of view, and the only thing you can see beyond the mounds is the green from another hole.

Seriously, this is one spectacularly bad hole.

[Pete_Pittock]

      If it is any consolation when the OGA was first course rating the North course the team tried to rate it to the 14th green as well. After I walked over and stood on the 13th green, they wouldn't believe me. I asked for a call of hands of who was a member, and when I was the only one with a hand raised, I told them "local knowledge".
      From the 100 yd pole, if you walk another 25 yards you will see the fairway dogleg to the left.
The course is holding the Oregon Amateur this June.

I will email the authorities and suggest a taller flagstick?.

[Bill_McBride]

Or a marker pole.

[Garland Bayley]

The secret to this hole is to aim your drive at the wrong green. Then, when you get to your ball, you realize your mistake and ask Pete where to hit. Hit your sand wedge where he says, make the birdie putt. No sweat.