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Patrick_Mucci

As you walk from the 5th green, down, then up the hill to the 6th tee you have no idea as to what awaits you, for 6th hole won't come into view until you arrive up on the tee.

Once on the tee, a unique vista unfolds before your eyes.

Lying down below is an expansive green surrounded by bunkers.

But, it's not just any green, it's a compartmentalized green, a series of greens, a green with nooks and crannies, donuts, elevation changes, penisulas and the like.

At 141 from the Red, 131 from the Green and 110 from the White, it's a short hole,.... made shorter by its downhill nature.

The green is about 35 yards deep, probably 45 yards on the diagonal.
The green has a diagonal element to it.

The hole plays with a prevailing down/cross wind, however, when the wind shifts, it takes on a far more complex nature.

The number of hole locations and how they affect play are numerous.

The strategic nature of the hole locations is quite unique.

From the front right locations to locations scattered around the donut/ volcano top in the center, to hole locations inside the donut/volcano to the hole locations in the back left and right make for incredible diversity.

When you factor the elevation change, and the WIND into the shot, if becomes far more complex.

Despite the appearance of the huge green that lies beneath you, your target is substantively smaller, ala the greens within greens concept.

Club selection can be incredibly varied, from a Lob/Sand wedge, to a 7-iron or more, depending upon hole location, wind direction and wind velocity.

Just hitting the green is not enough.
You must be within the same area that the hole is cut in.

Golfers missing the green have an enormous task ahead of them.
The recovery, generally from the bunkers, can be very difficult due to the pronounced contouring in the green.

For those golfers not in the same general area as the hole, three and four putts are the norm.

It's difficult to describe the elevation changes and contouring in the green, but, suffice it to say, when the greens are F&F this green is a bear to putt, unless you've hit your approach close to the hole.

The neat thing about the hole is that you can play it every day, and, with changed hole locations, varied wind direction and velocity, you could probably play it differently every day.  It has enormous variety.

One of the neat aspects of playing the hole and missing the green is the possible use of the volcano for your recovery shots when the greens are F&F.  The volcano can be like a sloped backboard, assisting the aggressive recovery.

When the hole is located in the front right, close to the edge of the green, it presents an extremely narrow target, like a penisula. With the prevailing wind at your back, the target is even narrower.  Despite the short length of the approach, it's a difficult shot, often causing indecision in the golfer's mind.

One of the really neat, neat features of the green is its feeding nature.
Marginal shots to the perimeter are fed into the surrounding bunkers.
Even good shots, with backspin find their way into the bunkers.

On one round, with the pin back left, I hit what I thought was a terrific shot, probably no more than 12' from the hole.
We left the tee and walked down to the green.
When we got to the green my ball was nowhere to be found.
It was in the left flanking bunker.
The backspin had taken it back to the crest of the upper tier, then down the slope of the green and into the bunker.  While I made a par on the hole, a bogey would have upset me, as I was thinking birdie as I left the tee.  I was shocked to find that the ball wasn't on the green.

Over the years, many golfers have suffered the same fate, and worse.

This is a hole where power has little advantage.

Finesse, smarts, good planning and good execution can be rewarding.
Other times you can do all of the above and suffer an unpleasant fate.

It is a wonderful hole, a hole that appears to be a birdie on the scorecard.
Often however, golfers leaving the green are terribly disappointed.

I think it's one of the great par 3's in golf.

Pictures Please.

Thanks

Charlie Goerges

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Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 11:54:31 PM »
Aerial image:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2009, 09:03:27 AM »
In my opinion, NGLA's #4 green is the most strategic short par 3 green in existence, and perhaps in the top half dozen of the most strategic par 3s in existence.

The size of the green (probably around 12,000sf) is really ironic and sort of counter-intuitive. There are basically three pinnable areas (back left, the famous horseshoe in the front/middle and the right side). The entire front left greenspace is not only not pinnable, the ball will not stay on the green if on that area.

This is a hole that can play really short but again it is counter-intuitive that this green is basically MADE by its immense over-all size (I think for any so-called "Short" to be really good it must be near this total greenspace just to fit in all the contouring and complexity).

This is a green that is the ultimate in so-called "greens within a green"----eg if you are in the wrong part of the green to the day's pin, the challenge of two putting is really great. It can be done but it sure takes some remarkable imagination and execution!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2009, 10:47:30 AM »
Pat:
You obviously love both Pine Valley and NGLA.  If you could only play ten more rounds for the rest of your life and they had to be played on PV and NGLA, how would you split the 10?   

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2009, 11:53:21 AM »
Carl,

For me, NGLA has a mystical quality, inherent in the architecture, locale, history and membership.

It also holds a special place in my golfing heart as I played one of my best, if not my greatest, competitive rounds under difficult circumstances.

I also played a great round at PV under difficult circumstances, but, not in a competitive round.

Both courses are spectacular, but, NGLA would get the lion's share of my rounds, maybe even a shutout.

There's an enjoyment and spiritual level at NGLA that's tough to match. 

TEPaul

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2009, 12:27:22 PM »
Pat:

For me (and my game) as much as I love PV, I'm with you----I'd take NGLA to play most of the time. Unlike you, I've never had a really great or memorable round there, but my life in golf just goes so far back there, right to the very beginning of it and it's inextricably connected at that course to my dad too which I really like at this point in my own life.

But the thing I really love about those two courses is they began so close to one another, they were both considered superstars in American and world golf and architecture even when they were still in the starting box, so to speak, and even if a number of their basic architectural principles are somewhat similar, all in and all out, they could hardly be more different, and THAT, to me, is what the essence of golf course architecture in a macro sense is all about or should be!

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2009, 01:36:40 PM »
And just look how this hole has changed over the years.  Does anyone have preferences?  It is a more aesthetically pleasing hole today?  It is a BETTER hole today?  Would anyone promote a faithful restoration?

This image is from 1913...


While this one is taken from Ran's profile...
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

TEPaul

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2009, 01:45:06 PM »
SteveB:

Obviously Macdonald himself took out those early "sleepers" on #6 and consequently I see no good reason why they should be restored.

jkinney

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Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2009, 03:02:10 PM »
Carl,

For me, NGLA has a mystical quality, inherent in the architecture, locale, history and membership.

It also holds a special place in my golfing heart as I played one of my best, if not my greatest, competitive rounds under difficult circumstances.

I also played a great round at PV under difficult circumstances, but, not in a competitive round.

Both courses are spectacular, but, NGLA would get the lion's share of my rounds, maybe even a shutout.

There's an enjoyment and spiritual level at NGLA that's tough to match. 

Hear, Hear !!  The spiritual level is unmatched for me also. I think that Pine Valley and Shinnecock should be the question in re splitting 10 rounds. They are the two great tests for grinding, high level medal play. The National is so different from them both, and they are so similar to each other.

The more relevant splitting of ten rounds for NGLA would be between it and Cypress Point, IMO.

As to #6, "Short", the topic at hand, I know of no other hole that I should have made par on and didn't more times !!
To say that "Short" can be exasperating is to understate. I can't wait to play Doak's new version. I can only hope he will be more merciful than CBM !

Jim Nugent

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2009, 03:11:16 PM »
For those of you who have played #6 at NGLA and #17 at Sawgrass, which do you think is the better hole? 

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2009, 03:17:17 PM »
SteveB:

Obviously Macdonald himself took out those early "sleepers" on #6 and consequently I see no good reason why they should be restored.

Tom,

Whether or not those timbers were removed by Macdonald himself is immaterial.  For example, Pete Dye, who, like Macdonald, is also considered a master in the profession, is regularly hounded on this site for tinkering with (and apparently defiling) Crooked Stick, and, perhaps coincidentally, is also well renowned for the inclusion of timbers/sleepers as part of his designs.  Is Macdonald, above all designers, beyond reproach for after the fact alterations to his courses?

So, bearing in mind that I have never set foot on the property at NGLA, and further assuming that you are not well over 100 years old  :D and have, therefore, never played the golf course in that early iteration, the question remains: Is the hole better today than it was then?
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2009, 04:39:12 PM »
Steve Burrows,

If TEPaul could answer you, in what context would you judge his repsonse ?

Quite to the contrary, whether or not CBM removed the sleepers IS material.
He obviously built a better mousetrap with his alterations.

Macdonald labored for years, fine tuning NGLA.
Should we accept his refined version or his initial version ?
Should we seek and accept the archtectural high water marks or his first attempts at design and construction ?

The same question can be asked of Donald Ross at Pinehurst # 2, where he labored for 26 years to fine tune the golf course.

I'm of the opinion that CBM new what he was doing, strived to produce the best possible features and holes, and that his fine tuned versions are the true manifestation of his creative genius ...... not those represented by his first bite of the architectural apple. 

If NGLA decided to restore the 6th as depicted in your photo, it wouldn't diminish the value of the hole, other than possibly the rolloffs.

However, I'm one of those advocates of restoring sleepers at GCGC, so I may be biased.

JKinney,

I think the differences you cite can be summed up in one word.

FUN.

NGLA is FUN to play, day in and day out.
The challenge is quite unique, but, it doesn't beat you up or wear you down.

Pine Valley is a wonderful challenge, but, it can be challenging to the point of exasperation.

While my experience with those who have played PV is limited, I don't think the word most often heard after a round, irrespective of one's score is ..... fun.

TEPaul & JKinney,

I think an appealing attribute of NGLA is the Divergence or variety of available shots.
You can reach your goal, the hole, in a wide variety of ways, whereas, many other courses define for you, how you will play the hole if you want to score well.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2009, 05:18:44 PM »
Patirck,

This whole journey has been a real treat. Thank you.



This is only a guess, but I am thinking that MacDonald used sleepers here because he couldn't get the grass to grow on the severity of slope that he wanted for this bunker. But after he learned how to grow grass in that environment, the sleepers were no longer necessary. Just a guess.

PV is generally thought of as the greater test in golf because of its more penal quality. But I wonder - if a guy got really creative with hole cup placements at NGLA if he couldn't make those greens as difficult as any set of greens anywhere, and not necessarily by being ridiculous about it either, but fair all around.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 05:21:31 PM by Bradley Anderson »

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2009, 05:23:09 PM »
jkinney:
Good point; the main reason I asked Pat the question about NGLA and PV is because he's currently doing detailed posts about the two of them.  But, you pose a good question:  for those who have played Cypress and NGLA (I've played neither), how would you split ten rounds? 

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2009, 05:40:55 PM »
Fascinating to read that both Tom & Patrick prefer playing NGLA to Pine Valley.  It's great to hear that players much better than me find the same sort of enjoyment that I did.  There seems to be the lesson when we talk about growing the game.  You can find a challenge without getting beat up.

Now some pics.  For some reason I just had to take a shot of the tee yardage marker.


Two views from the tee at different times in the day.  The grass partly hides the bunkering, but the tee shot is still intimidating enough considering how large the green is.




This was on the way up to the green.  Now you can see all of the bunkering and get a sense of how much the green is contoured. 


This is from the surface of the green.  You can see the "volcano" that Patrick spoke of.


From the right side of the green.  You can really notice how the flagstick is perched on a mountain.


Here's the green from behind right.


One last look from 7 after the tee shot.  This may show all of the slopes better than any other picture I took.  At this point I'm wondering can this course get any better...........




Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2009, 06:16:40 PM »
John,

Once again, thanks for the accompanying pictures.

The real shame is that the contours and slopes in the green can't be vividly captured on film.

To most, the green seems interesting, but not dynamic.
Those who have played # 1, # 3 and # 6 can attest to the spectacular contours and slopes.

They're really special.

TEPaul

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2009, 06:30:34 PM »
"Is Macdonald, above all designers, beyond reproach for after the fact alterations to his courses?"


SteveB:

If you're talking about Macdonald's own alterations to NGLA of course he's beyond reproach, in my opinion. Anyone on here or elsewhere who attempts to say otherwise either doesn't understand designers of the type Macdonald was at NGLA (that unusual "amateur/sportsman" of that early era) or they're frankly analytical idiots in an historic sense on golf architecture and its varied evolution or types of courses done at various times and using various methods and durations.

In my opinion, those so-called amateur/sportsmen architects who have those really famous and well respected courses----ie Leeds (Myopia), Fownses (Oakmont), Macdonald (NGLA), Wilson (Merion), Crump (Pine Valley) ALL succeeded as well as they did on those courses primarily BECAUSE they took so many years to work on perfecting them including altering them after the fact of their openings! 

Macdonald worked on improving NGLA for about 20 years before he died in 1939. Anyone who says he shouldn't have done that, in my opinion, doesn't understand NGLA or the unique modus operandi of that type of unusual "amateur/sportsmen" design and designer and their special life-long projects.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2009, 06:41:14 PM by TEPaul »

David Stamm

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Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2009, 06:41:26 PM »
Thanks for the descriptions, Pat. John, the pictures really help someone who hasn't been there a little bit of an idea what a truly great place NGLA must be and I thank you as well.



For guys that have played a few Shorts, how does NGLA's compare to others?
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2009, 08:14:49 PM »
David,

I think the green and surrounds puts it in a class all by itself.

Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2009, 08:29:46 PM »
Tom,

Apart from your apparent deification of Macdonald (to which I, personally, cannot assent), I honestly tend to agree with you.  Those courses that you mentioned (Myopia, Oakmont, etc.) are indeed some of the most innovative and imaginative golf courses in the world, and the unique nature of the tests that are presented is most certainly a tribute to the men who conceived, created and cared for them.  Moreover, the very fact that these men came from such unlikely places (steel magnates, hoteliers, etc.) allowed for their creations to be informed and inspired by their personal understanding of sport, rather than a list of guidelines, and this goes far to make them into the special places that they are.  The further notion that their opinions may have changed over the years and that these changing opinions revealed themselves by way of tangible changes to the course(s) is not only intriguing, but, as you mention, likely add to the merits of the given test of golf.

I suppose that I am being deliberately difficult in this line of questioning, please believe me when I say that I ask all of this out of sincere curiosity: Is the golf hole better just because Macdonald says so, or is it a better golf hole?  Do we rely on the apparent intrinsic skill of Macdonald's decision making (he decided to change it so it must have been the right thing), or can we have just a shadow of a doubt and wonder whether the various alterations actually strengthened the test of golf?  You must admit that there is a certain elegance and beauty to the 1913 photo, yes?
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2009, 08:46:08 PM »
Steve Burrows,

There's a great picture of the sleepers at the 1st green at GCGC.
It shows Heinrich Schmidt playing his FIFTH shot from the bunker in the second qualifying round of the U.S. Amateur in 1913.

Interestingly enough, sleepers were also employed on the 12th green at GCGC circa 1913.

There's a certain pass/fail quality to them.

Imagine your ball coming to rest at their base.

I also think they're a throw back or reminder of the straight faced brick sod bunker walls found in the UK.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2009, 08:53:31 PM »
I took my earlier photos and zoomed in then cropped a few of them. While not ideal, they do give a bit better idea of the contours in this green.

From the front.


From the right side of the green.


Standing on the left center of the green looking toward the right side.


Finally, from the rear of the green. 


From the rear, zoomed in on the area where the hole is located. 


If ever there were a course that warranted 3D photography, this is it!


Steve Burrows

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2009, 09:03:54 PM »
Pat,

I agree.  Sleepers are not for every situation.  I have played courses where I felt like they truly belonged there, and others where I felt like the designer (Pete Dye) simply put them there because the client was somehow convinced that this was Dye's trademark, and that they just HAD to be there to confirm such.  And, as you mention, I too have been right up next to them in a bunker (not too pleasant), and I have also hit shots from the fairway that struck the angled face of the timbers and shot back and to the right about 25 yards.  I hit a bad shot, I should be punished somehow, right?

Like you say, they are also a throwback, and I don't think that it is coincidence that both Macdonald and Dye may have taken the inspiration from their studies abroad, as interpretations of the sod wall bunkers of Scottish courses.
...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2009, 09:10:53 PM »
Steve,

When Pete was designing and building Harbour Town, I believe that he had visited the UK, Prestwick in particular, and was impressed and inspired by what he saw in the Cardinal (?) bunker there.

He was probably the first one to reintroduce sleepers in 50 or so years

Mike Sweeney

Re: # 6 on the Enchanted Journey - One of my favorite par 3's in Golf.
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2009, 09:19:05 PM »

For guys that have played a few Shorts, how does NGLA's compare to others?

For playability National is my favorite. Like many holes at Fishers, the view and scenery at 16 makes you forget if there is anything missing from a playability perspective: