Is Walter Travis the most unappreciated ODG?

[Kyle Harris]

Yes.

Alex Findlay and it's not even close.

[MCirba]

Yes.

Alex Findlay and it's not even close.

Homer. 

[Kyle Harris]

Yes.

Alex Findlay and it's not even close.

Homer. 

Perhaps, but Walter Travis was the Hipster elite of his time in terms of Golf Architecture, hard to consider that underrated.

Alex Findlay is constantly fighting the tortured comparisons to Donald Ross on the basis of "elevated greens."

[Tom_Doak]

I've agreed to start writing a column for The Met Golfer, and eventually one of the topics I'll get to is a series on the Underrated Architects of the Met Area.  I've been trying to decide if Travis should be considered in that group or not.  Apart from Garden City, his courses there are largely unsung.


Plus surely whatever Hipster cred he has now should be offset by the fact Hipsters did not exist in his day.  I think he didn't mingle well with the big money elite and therefore built most of his courses in blue-collar towns.

[Mike_Clayton]

He's certainly the most under appreciated Australian-born golf course architect. No more so than in Australia given he was the first Australian-born major champion.

[Jaeger Kovich]

He's certainly the most under appreciated Australian-born golf course architect. No more so than in Australia given he was the first Australian-born major champion.

Although it doesn't appear that he ever played golf in Australia. He certainly learned the game later in life after he had moved out of the country. Mike Did you know of him growing up as an architect or player?

[Peter Pallotta]

It strikes me that Travis was less the self-conscious Architect (with a capital A) than many of his now more famous counterparts. It manifested itself in his courses and in his life/choices/career path. Since that art-craft became, as did all arts-crafts, more and more studied and self-conscious as the decades passed, it's not surprising that we today have more affinity for/connection with the Dr Macs and CBMs of that time (and their work) than with Travis.

[Rob Marshall]

Niall--I believe that Travis had good reasons for perceiving those "slights" during the 1904 British Am.  I also believe that those situations did not significantly alter his great respect for golfers and golf courses in the UK.  That said, I would agree that he was a man who somehow got caught up in situations that affected his personal relationships, e.g. Emmet and Macdonald.


Interesting discussion about the 11th green at Stafford CC.  Re the comment concerning the spruce trees that dominant the photos.  Those trees are being removed.  I appreciate Blake's comment about the green.  Having played that green for over 42 years, I will defend it to the bitter end.  It is a beautiful green, offering many interesting and challenging pin positions and many predictable challenges from wherever your approach shot ends up. 


I believe that Travis was just starting to hit his stride in the early '20s, but that his career was cut short by his poor health.  Count me as one who believe he is one (if not the) most unappreciated ODG's.

Ed, I play Stafford a few times a year. Ive played it in causal rounds and tournaments. The 11th in my opinion is the hardest hole on the course tee to green. If it was a par 5 or a short par 4 like the 10th,I think the green works. Mid iron in, not so much. It's a wonderful golf course. I enjoy every round I play there. But I just dread that green. I don't think the shaved run off over the green helps either. I've hit some pretty good shots in there that turned out to be unrecoverable.

[Mike_Clayton]

Jaeger,


I read a lot of history but I'm not sure when I first read of his exploits in America. He was born in Maldon, a small town north of Melbourne but there is no acknowledgement of him there and very few people here know of him or what he achieved.

[Sven Nilsen]

It strikes me that Travis was less the self-conscious Architect (with a capital A) than many of his now more famous counterparts. It manifested itself in his courses and in his life/choices/career path. Since that art-craft became, as did all arts-crafts, more and more studied and self-conscious as the decades passed, it's not surprising that we today have more affinity for/connection with the Dr Macs and CBMs of that time (and their work) than with Travis.

Peter:


I'm not sure what you mean by a "self-conscious Architect."  If you mean someone who simply went out and designed courses, and didn't spend much time on theory or trying to evolve the craft, I'd argue that Travis was one of the first architects in America to do exactly that.  If anything, Travis was one of the first experts in the US on design.  He wrote on the subject, was highly sought after as a consultant, and in many ways helped define the movement away from the geometric school of design to a more natural style.


Sven

[Blake Conant]

Niall--I believe that Travis had good reasons for perceiving those "slights" during the 1904 British Am.  I also believe that those situations did not significantly alter his great respect for golfers and golf courses in the UK.  That said, I would agree that he was a man who somehow got caught up in situations that affected his personal relationships, e.g. Emmet and Macdonald.


Interesting discussion about the 11th green at Stafford CC.  Re the comment concerning the spruce trees that dominant the photos.  Those trees are being removed.  I appreciate Blake's comment about the green.  Having played that green for over 42 years, I will defend it to the bitter end.  It is a beautiful green, offering many interesting and challenging pin positions and many predictable challenges from wherever your approach shot ends up. 


I believe that Travis was just starting to hit his stride in the early '20s, but that his career was cut short by his poor health.  Count me as one who believe he is one (if not the) most unappreciated ODG's.

Ed, I play Stafford a few times a year. Ive played it in causal rounds and tournaments. The 11th in my opinion is the hardest hole on the course tee to green. If it was a par 5 or a short par 4 like the 10th,I think the green works. Mid iron in, not so much. It's a wonderful golf course. I enjoy every round I play there. But I just dread that green. I don't think the shaved run off over the green helps either. I've hit some pretty good shots in there that turned out to be unrecoverable.

This made me think of their great finishing hole (now a practice green) that could probably be put back in play with a little creativity.  I think Ed said they may even play to that green for annual tournaments? (photo taken from right of the green, courtesy of Travis website)

[Rob Marshall]

Niall--I believe that Travis had good reasons for perceiving those "slights" during the 1904 British Am.  I also believe that those situations did not significantly alter his great respect for golfers and golf courses in the UK.  That said, I would agree that he was a man who somehow got caught up in situations that affected his personal relationships, e.g. Emmet and Macdonald.


Interesting discussion about the 11th green at Stafford CC.  Re the comment concerning the spruce trees that dominant the photos.  Those trees are being removed.  I appreciate Blake's comment about the green.  Having played that green for over 42 years, I will defend it to the bitter end.  It is a beautiful green, offering many interesting and challenging pin positions and many predictable challenges from wherever your approach shot ends up. 


I believe that Travis was just starting to hit his stride in the early '20s, but that his career was cut short by his poor health.  Count me as one who believe he is one (if not the) most unappreciated ODG's.

Ed, I play Stafford a few times a year. Ive played it in causal rounds and tournaments. The 11th in my opinion is the hardest hole on the course tee to green. If it was a par 5 or a short par 4 like the 10th,I think the green works. Mid iron in, not so much. It's a wonderful golf course. I enjoy every round I play there. But I just dread that green. I don't think the shaved run off over the green helps either. I've hit some pretty good shots in there that turned out to be unrecoverable.

This made me think of their great finishing hole (now a practice green) that could probably be put back in play with a little creativity.  I think Ed said they may even play to that green for annual tournaments? (photo taken from right of the green, courtesy of Travis website)

Great picture. The practice green as shown no longer exists in that form. They do use the practice green in some tournaments that I've played in.

[John Blain]

Just to start a discussion... 

I've always wondered why Travis isn't mentioned more often.    But his work would seem to indicate that he was one of the best ODG's.

Does modern golf course architecture acknowledge his contributions adequately?

Just curious:  What does ODG stand for? Thanks.
John

[Ed Homsey]

I love seeing our #11 green at Stafford receiving some attention.  It is a devilish green and, as Rob Marshall points out, a very difficult green to approach with a mid-iron, or higher.  But, today, many of our youngsters are going at it with short irons.  To your point, Ron, a miss short of the green never hurts.  In fact, a miss short is desired if the pin is on the back left tier, or front right tier.  You can love it, or hate it, but whatever the case, it grabs your attention.  Blake--wasn't this green used as the template for a project by one of your colleagues?


Tom--I hope you include Travis in your Met Golfer column, though way back in the day, I don't believe he was "underrated" in the metropolitan region, given the number of courses he designed or remodeled in the area.  RE another point, I think I could make a very good case for Travis's position among the financial elite of his day.  I'm thinking of my home course, Stafford CC, where his involvement grew out of his relationship with one of the wealthy elite families of Buffalo, and ties with the, then, President of the Jello Company.  But, that's for another thread.   

[MCirba]

Sven is correct that Travis was one of the earliest and most vocal proponents of the move away from primitive designs towards strategic bunkering.


He wrote pretty extensively about the subject in the first decade or so of last century. 


He also had some involvement at Cobb's Creek in the latter part of 1915, likely while in town helping George Crump with his other course across the river.  We have no proof but we strongly suspect we know his most visible contribution to the Philadelphia muni.

[Peter Pallotta]

Mike, Sven - thanks. I was aware of some of that. My point was that the shift/progression he helped bring about is not the one that today's/modern day architects and fans of good gca recognize and value as the best expression of the art-craft. The ongoing resonance of templates, for example, is associated with CBM; the natural/carniverous bunkers still so popular today are associated with Dr Mac. This is not to denigrate Travis. It is simply to suggest that if he is under appreciated it is in the same way that Bix Beiderbeck is less appreciated than Louis Armstrong, ie the art-craft of jazz trumpet, as it is understood now by the practitioners themselves, is consciously indebted much more to the latter than the former.

[Ed Homsey]

A great analogy, Peter.

[Ronald Montesano]

Old Dead Guy

Just to start a discussion... 

I've always wondered why Travis isn't mentioned more often.    But his work would seem to indicate that he was one of the best ODG's.

Does modern golf course architecture acknowledge his contributions adequately?

Just curious:  What does ODG stand for? Thanks.
John

[Ed Homsey]

Nialll--Would you refresh my memory about the "bunker incident' you referred to?


In reviewing some Travis info, I was reminded of the U.S.1903 visitthe Oxford and Cambridge Golfing Society of Great Britain.  They played an impressive number of matches with top U..S amateurs on the top U.S courses of the time.  Travis took part in many of the matches and played the host when the matches moved to Ekwanok CC.  There is some indication that these matches eventualy led to the Walker Cup, and may have provided the impetus for Travis's entry into the 1904 British Am.  At this point, it appears that there was great mutual respect among all participants.

[Sean_A]

I've always associated Travis with Park Jr in my mind.  Both archies sort of bridged the more primitive period to the more modern style of architecture.  Both were quite daring and somewhat unconventional.  You can possibly put Fowler in that general group, though he is harder to pin point because all his designs are very different.

From my PoV Travis is very under-appreciated; not sure why other than for me much of his work is geographically difficult to access. If there was a main guy in Detroit that would be Ross..and Ross is still my go to standard of design. 


Ciao   

[Joe Bausch]

I tend to forget that I've played a 3rd Travis course, the public Lakewood CC in New Jersey. 

I've recently totally reprocessed the photos from 2014 and here is a pretty decent album:

http://xchem.villanova.edu/~bausch/images/albums/Lakewood/

To my eyes it seems some features of the course could be recaptured.

[Ed Homsey]

Thanks for that great post, Joe.  I notice that there is no mention of Travis on the Lakewood scorecard.  Any reference to him anywhere on that location?  Another indication of "unappreciated"? 


Earlier in this post, there were references to the early Travis writings about golf course design.  Was there anyone else writing about such matters as the placement of hazards, or the construction and upkeep of golf courses, at the beginning of the 1900s?  Who else, in those years, railed against the stereotypic cross-bunkers?  Was he the first to write about strategic, "scientific", and aesthetic placement of hazards?

[John Foley]

Bumping this.


Finally had the pleasure to see Stafford in a tournament last week and absolutely loved it!! As with the greens I've seen at Troy, Yahnundasis and Penn Hills these greens fit the land well with exciting contours which provide some great challenge. LOVED the 11th green and agree that approaching it with a mid iron is a TOUGH shot.


Travis is VERY under appreciated.

[MCirba]

Bumping this.


Finally had the pleasure to see Stafford in a tournament last week and absolutely loved it!! As with the greens I've seen at Troy, Yahnundasis and Penn Hills these greens fit the land well with exciting contours which provide some great challenge. LOVED the 11th green and agree that approaching it with a mid iron is a TOUGH shot.


Travis is VERY under appreciated.

Sounds enticing, John.


I'm hoping to make the journey there in the next few weeks.