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Jim Thornton

Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« on: March 17, 2009, 07:17:38 PM »
I played LACC North on Friday, and they are in the middle of a complete bunker renovation by Gil Hanse and Geoff Shackelford.  Several of the new bunkers have been completed, and I would describe their shape as "lacey edged" (i.e. they have an appearance that for me is reminiscent of a typical Alister MacKenzie bunker).

While in LA, I also had the opportunity to play Bel-Air and Riviera.  I realize that Bel-Air has been tinkered with extensively over the years, but my understanding is that Riviera is pretty representative of George Thomas' original bunker design. 

My question is whether the new bunkers at LACC North are true to the original Thomas bunkers?  While I think the new bunkers at LACC will be visually stunning, are they in keeping with George Thomas' original design intent?

If anyone can shed light on the above questions, I would appreciate it greatly.


Jim

David Druzisky

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Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2009, 07:57:32 PM »
We will see.  I must assume that would be Gil and Geoffs intent.  Some variables will be different though and they may adapt things accordingly.  Grass types are different, expectations higher and materials different.

If they get them reasonably close in character and in the correct and intended locations they will have done great things for that membership and a golf course that deserves that level of effort as one of a limited number of George Thomas' designs.

As they go along with their work there lets hope someone post photos of the progress.  Also, it may be the trees that prove the most difficult to address.

DbD

David Stamm

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Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2009, 08:11:33 PM »
Jim, the bunkers that Thomas is known for are in fact Bell's work. While similiar to MacKenzie's in some respects, they are unique in of themselves. The work that Gil, Geoff and Jim are doing there at LACC are very Bell like.


As for Riviera, the bunkers there today are not very Bell like. While somewhat similiar in general shape, the work that's being done at LACC is far more like Bell than what Fazio/Marzoff did at Riviera. Below is the 6th at Riviera soon after completion.




And today




Below is a early a photo of the 14th at LACC




 


And here is the 11th




And today





And here is Fox Hills (NLE)






I'm sure you'll agree after seeing the inital work on Friday and these for comparison, no one knows Thomas and Bell's work better than Geoff and Gil.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Jim Thornton

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2009, 08:17:49 PM »
David-

Thank you very much for your post and the photos you posted are quite illuminating for me.  Based on the early photos of Riviera and LACC, there is no doubt that Gil and Geoff are spot on in capturing the Bell style of bunkers.  They look exactly like the early photo you posted of Riviera number 6..and I do mean exactly.

It's funny, until you posted this, I always thought the classic Thomas style of bunker was the more rounded, sharp edged bunkers that are now at Riviera and LACC...I hadn't realized how much Riviera's bunker style has changed over the years.

OK, now it's official for me....once the bunker restoration and regrassing projects are completed at LACC, it will nudge ahead of Riviera in my book.

Thanks again for your information.


Jim




Neil_Crafter

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Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2009, 08:18:02 PM »
Jim
I would trust Gil and Geoff to get this right. The Bel-Air and Riviera bunkering has been simplified over the years and so is not a good comparison to make with what they are doing at LACC. Thomas/Bell bunkering was known for its lacey edges. The only old pic I have is of Riviera from 1929 showing the 2nd green, 9th green and 10th hole - its pretty clear the lacey edge style was pretty obvious. And as David D said, hopefully someone can take and post up some in progress snaps of the renovation work in progress.

Here's one to add to the photos David S just posted.



Scott Witter

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2009, 08:42:39 PM »
While there is no question re: the acknowledgement of the efforts from Gil & Geoff--I believe LACC is in good hands, I believe credit should also be recognized to one of the best builders behind the scenes at that is Jim Wagner, Gil's partner.  This appears to be a collaborative team effort--not unlike the way it was done years ago.

Jim Nugent

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2009, 10:37:08 PM »
If these courses restore the bunkers to their original style, how long will they stay that way?  Seems like bunker edges get smoothed out over time.

btw, great set of pictures. 

Ryan Farrow

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 01:42:24 AM »
If these courses restore the bunkers to their original style, how long will they stay that way?  Seems like bunker edges get smoothed out over time.

btw, great set of pictures. 

Jim, it all depends on the supers maintenance practices. If they have the time & money (which LACC should have) they can last a very very long time.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 02:14:02 AM »
How neat would they be if they did a tree clearing exercise like Oakmont or Shinnecock at Riveria?  Or is the course too narrow to safely do this?

Joe Hancock

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Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 08:03:16 AM »
If these courses restore the bunkers to their original style, how long will they stay that way?  Seems like bunker edges get smoothed out over time.

btw, great set of pictures. 

Jim, it all depends on the supers maintenance practices. If they have the time & money (which LACC should have) they can last a very very long time.

....or, they can edge them almost weekly.....
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Jim Thornton

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2009, 10:01:59 AM »
Actually, LACC North is in the process of taking down several trees.  I saw a bunch of trees that had recently been removed and were still waiting to be hauled away.  The member I played with told me that they're trying to open up more views of the hills and city.  There are already places where the vistas have been greatly improved and my understanding is that more work is forthcoming. 

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2009, 11:19:14 AM »
Looks terrific.  Hopefully it serves as a role model for other courses although many have already brought the ragged edge look back.

What construction company are they using?

Jon Spaulding

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Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2009, 12:45:31 PM »
The tree removal is going to be substantial.

Bunkering restoration " " .

Returning most holes to original playing intent, with mow lines " " .

I can't wait.
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Jon Spaulding

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2009, 12:47:30 PM »
David-

Thank you very much for your post and the photos you posted are quite illuminating for me.  Based on the early photos of Riviera and LACC, there is no doubt that Gil and Geoff are spot on in capturing the Bell style of bunkers.  They look exactly like the early photo you posted of Riviera number 6..and I do mean exactly.

It's funny, until you posted this, I always thought the classic Thomas style of bunker was the more rounded, sharp edged bunkers that are now at Riviera and LACC...I hadn't realized how much Riviera's bunker style has changed over the years.

OK, now it's official for me....once the bunker restoration and regrassing projects are completed at LACC, it will nudge ahead of Riviera in my book.

Thanks again for your information.


Jim


Jim, after seeing David's photos, and what you saw going on at LA....and saying that Bel Air at one time had the same "look"......does this have an impact with respect to what you saw relative to Bel Air's bunkering?
You'd make a fine little helper. What's your name?

Jim Thornton

Re: Bunker Renovation at Los Angeles CC
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2009, 01:32:56 PM »
Jon-

It would by hypocritical of me to say now that the bunker style at Bel-Air was offensive, particularly since I wasn't aware of what the original Billy Bell style was to begin with.  With that said, I am a big fan of what LACC is doing in terms of returning their bunkers to the original style.  The bunkers at LACC that had been completed are visually stunning and will provide even more character to the course.

Two things at Bel-Air bothered me much more than the bunker style.  First, as I said in another thread, the introduction of water features at Bel-Air struck me as totally contrived (in fact, they were reminiscent of Shadow Creek in their appearance).  Second, the encroachment of trees at Bel-Air really detracts from what would otherwise be incredible vistas of the hills and city.  They also play havoc with a few of the tee shots.

As to whether the style of bunker edges at a course matters as much as location/placement, I would say it does not from a strategic point of view.  From an asthetic point of view, I would much prefer to see the return to the original bunker style.  Another reason why LACC North will nudge ahead of Riviera in my book once the bunker restoration has been completed.


Jim

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