[Jason Topp]

Almost nothing.

A forced carry that is longer than the carry distance of all competent players in the field of a competition.  In other words, I believe even shorter hitters should be able to make a forced carry (Bethpage in 2002).

A hole at a location where the ball will not stop.


Most things labelled as "unfair" get that label because they identified a shortcoming in either the tactics or the execution of the complaining person.  Other things get that label because they are not fun.

[Richard Choi]

My biggest pet peeve...

If the ground is in play, you should have a reasonable chance of finding the ball within the allotted time.

If not, it should be marked as a hazard.

Nothing infuriates me more than a hole pinched in by tall "fescue" grass on both sides. You might as well replace that grass with water.

[Mike_Cirba]

A nuclear blast or being tackled by your opponent halfway into your downswing.

[James Boon]

 ...design that you consider unfair? And please post pictures of examples.

Eric,

I was going to post something along the lines of "life isn't always fair, so why should golf be?" but then your post made me reconsider...

I'm sure that something like the Death Star that has the firepower to destroy a planet seems pretty unfair, however, the Empire were good enough to design in a few thermal exhaust ports (about 2 m wide) and a tunnel just large enough for say The Falcon to fly down!

So you see, even when things seem really unfair, they aren't, they are just badly designed  

Cheers,

James

[Tom_Doak]

Most recently, I have come to understand the Credit Default Swap business as unfair, because clearly some firms were getting rich taking bets on circumstances which they could never afford to pay off on.

There is nothing in golf even CLOSE to that.

[JLahrman]

I realize that sometimes you'll get a good break or a bad break, but unfair to me is when a good shot and bad shot get the same result. 

Let's assume you hit a beautiful drive in the middle of the fw. Your opponent tops his shot, but it rolls next to your ball. You play your second perfectly to the middle of the green. Your opponent tops his shot again, it rolls through a bunker and comes to rest next to your ball. You both two putt for par.

You are feeling a little miffed. But in what sense is the hole to blame for the outcome? In what sense was the hole unfair?

Look, the concepts of fairness and luck are joined at the hip. If you think "fairness" is of signal importance, then you probably also think "luck" is a big problem.

I think the better way to go is to get over both ideas. At least in the context of golf.

Bob  

I realize that the extreme is a good method of illustration, but I have a hard time envisioning a topped tee shot regularly going as far as a well hit tee shot or a topped approach regularly finding the middle of the green.  If the conditions of the course make that possible, then I don't blame the course.  Rather, I don't consider the topped tee shot to be a bad shot.

[PCCraig]

Nothing.

Bring it on!



Except island tees, because when I top one with my driver I think it's unfair when my ball dribbles into the water.

[cary lichtenstein]

A nuclear blast or being tackled by your opponent halfway into your downswing.

I agree, how about a tree that jumps in front of your ball?

[Dan Kelly]

But golf holes, like catchers mitts, are incapable of being unfair. Or fair.

I can hear Mr. Goodale all the way across the Atlantic: "Or strategic?"

As for me: There are no unfair things -- but some stupid ones. Jason Topp nails the stupidest.

 

[BCrosby]

But golf holes, like catchers mitts, are incapable of being unfair. Or fair.

I can hear Mr. Goodale all the way across the Atlantic: "Or strategic?"

 

Dan -

I took Rich's admonishment to heart a couple of years ago. I no longer refer the the anthropomorphically problematical "strategic golf course."

After a period of painful auto criticism, I finally saw the light and now use the more felicitous "strategically designed golf course."

Bob

[Anthony Gray]

  Bob,

  I think it is unfair that you sent your brother to Holston Hills. How dare you leave him alone to look after Mike Young.

  Anthony

[BCrosby]

Anthony -

Yes, that WAS unfair!!! Though my brother called last night to tell me he is marrying the lovely Barbara who was with him on that snow-bound day in Knoxville. So things might have turned out worse.

Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

You're getting closer....

Dan

"Jason's Nail" (a sibling of "Occam's Razor"?) is imperfect.  One can always chip up towards the ladies tee (a la Paul Runyan at the 18th at Merion) or putt along the cart path (a la Mackenzie vis a vis the 15th at CPC and other holes that can be played with a putter)....

Rich

[Jason Topp]

Bob

You're getting closer....

Dan

"Jason's Nail" (a sibling of "Occam's Razor"?) is imperfect.  One can always chip up towards the ladies tee (a la Paul Runyan at the 18th at Merion) or putt along the cart path (a la Mackenzie vis a vis the 15th at CPC and other holes that can be played with a putter)....

Rich

Not always my friend - this boat leads from tee to fairway

[Ken Moum]

I have long believed that "unfair" is a silly term to use regarding golf.

The simple fact is that the whole damned sport is unfair.  Making a list of the ways it is unfair would take days--or weeks.

I prefer to think about shots, holes, and situations as being unreasonable. When golf presents an unreasonable shot, hole or situation, it becomes unfun in a hurry.

It is absolutely unreasonable to set up a green so that the only way to get a putt in the hole is to either make the first one, or keep putting from 6 feet below the hole until one goes in.

It is unreasonable to expect golfers to play down 15-yard-wide fairways bordered by tall rough or water hazards.

It is unreasonable to force every single player to hit a 290-yard fade off the tee if they want to avoid making a double bogey.

Any hole that can't be finished by the average 25 handicapper is unreasonable.  FWIW, I think the 17th at TPC Sawgrass is borderline unreasonable. If it had a way of playing up to the left, so that you could get on in three or four without challenging the water, I think it would be a better hole.

Hard is one thing, impossible is another thing entirely.

Maybe I have been biased by playing a lot of golf with women who hit it 120 yards off the tee, but I can tell you that they enjoy the game as much or more than my single-digit handicap friends.

BTW -- I played The Old Course with just such a woman, and her caddy was the captain of St. Andrews University golf team.

He quickly figured out how far she could hit it, and adapted his advice to her ability. I can only say that the lines he gave her off some tees were inspired.

It was part of a two week trip of golf, and her husband had told he early on that if she wanted to play out of a pot bunker, go aheahd, but don't beat yourself up trying to get out.

On #12 at TOC she was in a particularly tough one, and her caddie took one look and said, "Looks like a hand wedge, eh m'am?"

Golf ain't fair.

But it can try to be reasonable.

K

[George Pazin]

I have long believed that "unfair" is a silly term to use regarding golf.

The simple fact is that the whole damned sport is unfair.  Making a list of the ways it is unfair would take days--or weeks.

I prefer to think about shots, holes, and situations as being unreasonable. When golf presents an unreasonable shot, hole or situation, it becomes unfun in a hurry.

It is absolutely unreasonable to set up a green so that the only way to get a putt in the hole is to either make the first one, or keep putting from 6 feet below the hole until one goes in.

It is unreasonable to expect golfers to play down 15-yard-wide fairways bordered by tall rough or water hazards.

It is unreasonable to force every single player to hit a 290-yard fade off the tee if they want to avoid making a double bogey.

Any hole that can't be finished by the average 25 handicapper is unreasonable.  FWIW, I think the 17th at TPC Sawgrass is borderline unreasonable. If it had a way of playing up to the left, so that you could get on in three or four without challenging the water, I think it would be a better hole.

Hard is one thing, impossible is another thing entirely.

Maybe I have been biased by playing a lot of golf with women who hit it 120 yards off the tee, but I can tell you that they enjoy the game as much or more than my single-digit handicap friends.

BTW -- I played The Old Course with just such a woman, and her caddy was the captain of St. Andrews University golf team.

He quickly figured out how far she could hit it, and adapted his advice to her ability. I can only say that the lines he gave her off some tees were inspired.

It was part of a two week trip of golf, and her husband had told he early on that if she wanted to play out of a pot bunker, go aheahd, but don't beat yourself up trying to get out.

On #12 at TOC she was in a particularly tough one, and her caddie took one look and said, "Looks like a hand wedge, eh m'am?"

Golf ain't fair.

But it can try to be reasonable.

K

Nice post.

[Kalen Braley]

I guess someone has to be the Dictionary geek and bust out some actual definitions...

- Disproportionate; undue; beyond what is proper or fitting
- Not conforming to approved standards
- Contrary to laws or conventions
- Marked by injustice, partiality, or deception

As much as I agree in principle with what most say about thier not being anything unfair on a course, by definition I just can't agree.

If a putt goes up the hill, stops a few inches away and then begins to roll back to your feet how is this not what is proper or fitting?
If the pin location does not take into account laws of nature, specifically gravity, then how is this not contrary or conforming?
If a hole is partial to only good players in that bad ones can't finish it, then how is this not injustice?

Like it or not, based on the definition of unfair as we know it in the English language, it can indeed be applied to golf course design.

[Ross Waldorf]

Tom Doak says credit default swaps! That makes sense to me, and also accounts for some of the choices he makes on his courses, at least the ones that I've played.

I tend to agree with the "there's not much I'd call unfair" school. I kind of like a few crazy features that leave you scratching your head. Makes for a higher entertainment factor, much of the time. But I do tend to agree with Bart Bradley and Kalen Braley's positions on hole locations, although I'd hesitate to call them "unfair" exactly, since everybody who plays the hole has to deal with the same thing.

I will say that at Rustic Canyon, where I play a lot of my golf, I can get a little annoyed at hole placements on the short par 3 8th that creep too far up the hill toward the back right of the green. Those can fall into the category where if you're putting up the hill and miss the cup, your ball might not stop anywhere near the hole and roll way back down to your feet. And you might want to throw a club. But there's a fine line, because there are all kinds of positions on that green that are perfectly reasonable to me that I've heard others bitch about.

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

You're getting closer....

Dan

"Jason's Nail" (a sibling of "Occam's Razor"?) is imperfect.  One can always chip up towards the ladies tee (a la Paul Runyan at the 18th at Merion) or putt along the cart path (a la Mackenzie vis a vis the 15th at CPC and other holes that can be played with a putter)....

Rich

Not always my friend - this boat leads from tee to fairway

Surely, Jason, one can chip onto the boat.....

[Tom_Doak]

Now there is a question for our rules mavens -- is it legal to chip onto the boat?  Do they have to make a local rule to prohibit that?

[Roger Wolfe]

One of my favorite "unfair holes" is the 2nd hole at Royal New Kent (Strantz in Wmsbrg, VA).  I love it because I have never played through the ravine on the right.  My good friend who I play with all the time hates it because he hit his tee shot right into the ravine and spends at least six shots trying to get out.  Some call it unfair... I love it... especially when I play him.

[Philippe Binette]

For those who watch the CA Championship last week, there was some hilarious comments by Johnny Miller.

First, some player hit it short on an approach, the ball rolls back on the newly mown banks and goes in the water and Johnny goes:
'man, I've been begging Doral to mow those banks for so many years, that bring the lake much more into play and it plays in the mind of the players'

10 minutes later

Phil Mickelson's ball lands on the green on a 230 yards par 3, take a bounce near the cup and start rolling, slowly goes over the green, down the banks and in the water
Johnny goes; 'man that is unfair'

I thought that was funny

[Jason McNamara]

Philippe -

I saw the second shot to which you refer, but not the first.  Can you describe it?

Phil's was a pretty good shot on a tough hole.

Thanks.

[Scott Warren]

If it was a good shot it wouldn't have gone in the water, no?

[Philippe Binette]

The first shot was some player hitting it short and left (not a really solid shot) and the ball roll back but don't remember if the ball went back in the water...

I love the, if it went in the water it's was not a good shot...

I agree, a well prepared player would have known that the greens are getting firm and that a left to right ball flight (Phil draw especially) can possibly release in the water so he should not go for this flag... unless he wants to that a big gamble.

Was it a well struck shot in line with the flag from Phil ? YES
Was it a good golf shot ? The result said NO

It would have needed a better executed shot to get to the flag... or proper management not to go to the flag, play 30 feet away from it, and make 3 or maybe 2.

That's the funny part with players:

Unless it's flat out obvious that they can't go for a pin and it's historically OK to play away from it (like the 17th at The Old Course) they go for the flag and if the ball end up in trouble, they call it unfair (like 17th at Valderrama)

THE WALL IS OLDER THAN YOU, FIGURE IT OUT

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