(more?) proof that distance-finders save time

[Cristian]

Last week, I played in a regional qualifier for the US Public Links.  My starting time was 8:46 a.m.  The starter, after welcoming us and reviewing the rules sheet, said "We intend to cut the field and start round two at 12:30."  There were two more groups after us, which meant an expected pace of play of 3 hours and 30 minutes or less.

55 minutes later, my threesome was waiting on the third tee.  We watched as a player on the maybe-reachable par five paced from the 200 yard disc to his ball, which was probably 265 yards from the green.  An hour after we hit our first shots, we began play on the third hole.

Both in this competitive environment and more casual amateur play, I cannot conceive that distance devices would not absolutely speed up play.

WW

If pacing 130 yards (65 back and forth does not qualify for a penalty for slow play I don't know what does....

PS Round two did not begin on time.

[Doug Siebert]

I don't keep aggregate 18-hole score anymore, either.  I haven't for almost 10 years now. 

How do you measure yourself against other golfers?

Why should one care?  I know I'm better than the average golfer but worse than the pros, beyond that I don't think it matters too much where I fit in since I don't play in any tournaments.  I play golf for the challenge against the course and myself, and it doesn't particularly matter to me whether the people I'm playing with are shooting in the 60s for 18 holes or in the 60s for 9.  Occasionally I'll play some sort of game against the people I'm playing with, but I play my way, which is to maximize fun and enjoyment rather than miminize score (and I warn partners of that if people want to play teams, so I don't have someone trying to get me to play safe boring shots to preserve a lead etc.)

I keep track of my scores and maintain a handicap, but that's just because its the easiest way to see how I'm doing over time.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Doug

Spot on "I play golf for the challenge against the course and myself" throw in some fun, enjoyment, blind holes, Links courses (changing say every week to another virgin course) and I'm right with you (if only I could). Well said.

A general question to all: Why do so many dislike the blind holes, which we seem to have and enjoy in these islands? Would it have anything to do with electronic aids being next to useless and markers being of little help to yardage nuts because unless they see the flag they cannot even understand how yardage translates into distance? 

Melvyn

[JWinick]

Melvyn,

You play a very goofy game if distance is irrelevant.   We get it, you are a romantic.  You play golf to be one with nature...blah,blah,blah....

Your observation: ""Comments like “Since I care about my results, I am going to use every legal means to know my distance” disappoint me because it clearly shows how indoctrinated many of the modern golfer are by wanting to know the yardage at all times.""

Indoctrinated?  You show a complete lack of understanding of our argument.   Yardage is relevant.   End of story.   If you think it's irrelevant, than you obviously don't care very much about your results.  I have never met a good player who wasn't at all interested in the distance of a shot. 

No one is forcing you to play in a foursome with golfers who care about distance....But, you seem to want to ruin the fun for us and slow up play in the process.   

I hate to be repetitive, but SLOW PLAY IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN GOLF.   If you are going to fight rangefinders, than you are not addressing this issue.   The USGA is taking steps to stop technology from ruining the game (the grooves, possibly, the ball) and they do not view this as a problem at all.

If you really care about slow play, then you will accept virtually any improvement that speeds play but does not compromise the integrity of the game. 

[Melvyn Morrow]

You play a very goofy game if distance is irrelevant.   We get it, you are a romantic.  You play golf to be one with nature...blah,blah,blah..
Call golf goofy if it does not fit into your idea of golf.   .. I see your argument
Call me romantic to try to discredit my opinions of golf.    I still follow your argument
Call my opinions blah, blah, blah full contempt for the way golf was played for Centuries.
 I clearly see your argument. In fact, you just don’t give a damn about golf its all about you, winning, money even, but sweet nothing about the game of golf. A taker but never a giver perhaps.

Your observation: ""Comments like “Since I care about my results, I am going to use every legal means to know my distance” disappoint me because it clearly shows how indoctrinated many of the modern golfer are by wanting to know the yardage at all times.""

Indoctrinated?  You show a complete lack of understanding of our argument.   Yardage is relevant.   End of story.   If you think it's irrelevant, than you obviously don't care very much about your results.  I have never met a good player who wasn't at all interested in the distance of a shot. 
I feel I more than understand, perhaps touched a nerve referring it to an outside aid and therefore subconsciously golfers feel they are cheating themselves in the long run. Who said I was never interested in my shots or score, at times very interested. It may be that I just do not want to sell my Spirit to the Devil for something as fleeting as a victory. Are we not worth more than that is the game not worth defending, apparently not low scores and victory at any cost for you and the game?  I feel that we are worth more than that. Certainly, the game deserves more respect.  Anyway, if yardage was relevant why has it only come into play over he last quarter of a century, for centuries no written record is there regards yardage. The game for Centuries was played without yardage END OF STORY.

No one is forcing you to play in a foursome with golfers who care about distance....But, you seem to want to ruin the fun for us and slow up play in the process.   
Never been forced to play, always with friends who feel the same about the game. I do not want to ruin the fun for anyone but what about those worshipers of yardage who take forever to work out where they are on a course, then see which direction is to the pin before trying to then understand yardage/distance to the pin. If it’s a blind hole and you are not asked to play through then I hope you have your tent and overnight bag for the long wait. As for being faster than not using yardage, well I suppose, that depends upon each play, but I find it hard to believe that non-yardage player take longer.

I attach a new photo of the new experimental Mk XX Rangefinder Model from their secret Cylon Division. It’s still a prototype but apparently, they are working on the swing/play additional option, which will save you walking, taking a cart and even allow you play golf from the comfort of your own home. Now is that not the modern golf game you are really craven for, or is that just one step too far – when do you want to draw the line in the sand, well if at all
I hate to be repetitive, but SLOW PLAY IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN GOLF.   If you are going to fight rangefinders, than you are not addressing this issue.   The USGA is taking steps to stop technology from ruining the game (the grooves, possibly, the ball) and they do not view this as a problem at all.

Slow play is actually a problem caused by golfers. The cure must start with the golfer. On building sites for over 10 years there has been an induction course that all must attend, because the time it takes to get around course  golfers should be required to understand their actions and the consequences. My experience over here put the odd slow play I have encounter down to carts and those trying to resolve yardage, but luckily  we have on most occasions been asked to play through.

If you really care about slow play, then you will accept virtually any improvement that speeds play but does not compromise the integrity of the game

My understanding is that slow play is mainly the curse of American courses, which have No Walking Courses, Carts in abundance and many players use and carry distance aids. That is the general gist I get from reading GCA.com topics. GB&I not suffer anywhere, as near that depth of problem – perhaps there may be a lesson to be learnt.

I voice an opinion, I see and observe, passing them on. The modern game is ravaged by distance/yardage, its one of the biggest problems I see us facing. An element of the game is being removed by outside assistant leaving the golfer poorer for the experience. That in short is my concern, but seek the mirage of victory but what are you sacrificing for a moments pleasure?
  Melvyn

[C. Squier]

I don't keep aggregate 18-hole score anymore, either.  I haven't for almost 10 years now. 

How do you measure yourself against other golfers?

Why should one care?

Surely you've seen Caddyshack?  I'll excuse Melvyn for not catching the joke....but come on! 

[Wade Whitehead]

Last week, I played in a regional qualifier for the US Public Links.  My starting time was 8:46 a.m.  The starter, after welcoming us and reviewing the rules sheet, said "We intend to cut the field and start round two at 12:30."  There were two more groups after us, which meant an expected pace of play of 3 hours and 30 minutes or less.

55 minutes later, my threesome was waiting on the third tee.  We watched as a player on the maybe-reachable par five paced from the 200 yard disc to his ball, which was probably 265 yards from the green.  An hour after we hit our first shots, we began play on the third hole.

Both in this competitive environment and more casual amateur play, I cannot conceive that distance devices would not absolutely speed up play.

WW

PS Round two did not begin on time.

And I'm sure it was that one player who caused the entire field to come to a grinding halt...   

He was only part of the problem but would have [maybe] played faster with a distance device.

To answer another question: Top 30 (of about 90 players) and ties made the afternoon.

WW

[Richard Choi]

Melvyn, gotta question for you.

If you don't keep score and you don't care to keep score. Do you follow rules to the letter? Do you give yourself a better lie in the rough? Do you move the ball out if it is in a divot?

If not, what not? If you don't keep score, why does it matter that you play as it lies? If it feels like cheating, then just give yourself a penalty stroke, what does it matter? You don't keep score anyway, right?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Richard

I refer you to my previous posts on this topic. As for not scoring, I do not believe I mentioned it. What makes you think that I don’t keep score? Again, why would I not follow the Rules?

On this topic, I am just stating that I am not into, or use yardage and it is my humble belief that all golfers do not need this information to play golf. The pro’s seem to use it because others do and therefore not keen to miss out (that means loose money) they use it.

I find it surprising that many do not seem to want to believe or can’t accept that the game cannot be played without yardage information. Again I repeat, why did golfers dating back centuries not use yardage.

I have heard some stupid comments on here that they used a rock or tree to work out the yardage, tending to play on the same course often. However if yardage was not used then why would they want to know the distance the tree or rock was from the pin. Please show me written proof that yardage was used and I will accept it, but I have searched many records and not come across any mention of yardage.  This therefore, has brought me to the conclusion that most modern golfers have been indoctrinated into believing that this is how golf has always been played.

My family has been playing golf (the earliest record that we know is 1771), passing down the generations, so why was it that yardage was never explained to me when I was young, and learning the game. I was inducted at the R&A, taken through all the family history, shown all the medals trophies plus a range of original clubs, yet not one word of yardage. Being that important would you not think it would be high up on the learning cycle. After all my father and great Uncle took the time to explain everything else. My father when young played with Uncle Willie Rusack (Willie a designer in his own right and good golfer, was married to Old Tom daughter Agnes), yet no mention of yardage.

The need for yardage is now set so deep in the minds of so many golfers, yet in truth they don’t need it. IMHO, your game would be more enjoyable if all markers and aids disappeared off the face of the Earth, then all would have an equal opportunity from the Pro to the novices.  However, will that ever happen when money prizes are large and there will always be those certain individuals that need that little edge in their mind to try and win.

Ask yourself is it really good for the Game of Golf to be so reliant on yardage?

Melvyn

[JWinick]

Melvyn,

You said: "I feel I more than understand, perhaps touched a nerve referring it to an outside aid and therefore subconsciously golfers feel they are cheating themselves in the long run. Who said I was never interested in my shots or score, at times very interested. It may be that I just do not want to sell my Spirit to the Devil for something as fleeting as a victory. Are we not worth more than that is the game not worth defending, apparently not low scores and victory at any cost for you and the game?  I feel that we are worth more than that. Certainly, the game deserves more respect.  Anyway, if yardage was relevant why has it only come into play over he last quarter of a century, for centuries no written record is there regards yardage. The game for Centuries was played without yardage END OF STORY."

So, you equate knowledge of distance as selling the Spirit to the Devil?  You are beyond ridiculous.   

And, why does everyone of your arguments rest on "I know how the game is supposed to be played because my great, great, grandfather's cousin was Old Tom Morris?"   It's a very elitist, arrogant, and backward position for you to take.  Who cares if the game was played without yardage for centuries?  And, how do you defend such a statement?   Do you have proof that the players in the 1800s didn't consider distance?   

[Rob Rigg]

I played with a pretty slick laser device today - it felt good to know the exact distance to the pin, when I wasn't worried that I didn't aim the thing incorrectly. My playing partners were also very excited to get their exact distance.

We were pretty much "nose to butt" with the round so it was tough to figure out whether or not the laser was slowing us down or speeding us up.

I can say, confidently, that if I was playing on my own with an open course in front of me, I would play much faster without a laser ans I would with it. Where's the 150, what yardage did I walk by, minus 10 or so, pin looks like its at the back, all of these calculations take not time at all.

With a laser - which is more accurate than GPS - you need to push up your hat, push up your sunglasses (it was 95 degree today!), and then dial it in which does not take long, but takes a few seconds.

From the rough or distant rough it is helpful because sprinkler heads do not lurk out there so you can get "exact" yardage to the pin, hazards, etc. by shooting them. From the middle of the fairway, it is a couple yards here or there depending on pin position.

Do I find the yardage device helpful? Yes
Did I score any better than normal? No
Does it make me play faster as a single? No
Did it impact the amount of time our foursome spent on the course? No
Would I find it advantageous in a tournament? Yes
Would it help me play faster in a tournament? No - but it would probably help some people play faster
If everyone played without distance would that make me happy? Absolutely

I am still of the school that you put a 200 stake, a 150 stake and a 100 stake in the ground a you let your brain to the math.

After a few rounds on a course you can certainly play without yardage, but the first couple of rounds can result in some bad misses if you do not have ANY data.

Just MO.

[Melvyn Morrow]

JW

So, you equate knowledge of distance as selling the Spirit to the Devil.  You are beyond ridiculous.   
No, if you read my words I was referring to willing use of an outside aid to gain advantage as selling the Spirit to the Devil

And, why does everyone of your arguments rest on "I know how the game is supposed to be played because my great, great, grandfather's cousin was Old Tom Morris?"   It's a very elitist, arrogant, and backward position for you to take.  Who cares if the game was played without yardage for centuries?  And, how do you defend such a statement?   Do you have proof that the players in the 1800s didn't consider distance

If only some of you would look at what I am saying instead of reading what you thinking I am saying, you may actually understand what I am saying. My answer to you I believe did not mention Old Tom, but you are still not reading it correctly because you say “my great, great, grandfather's cousin was Old Tom Morris?" which is not correct.

My comments were based upon my interest in the game, its history and how it has been played for centuries. It also happens to be the way I was taught to play, which I do not see that as being very elitist, arrogant and backward position for me to take, it is just a simple statement to explain the consistency of the game in my family. If I were elitist, I would be a Member of the R&A demanding changes.

As for my family link to golf, it was through that close association that I was asked to be a Member of GCA.com. Yes, I am indeed proud of my family history and its connection with the game. Through the family, information has been passed down to each generation conveying the history of the game.

As for who cares, I for one certainly care for the game, unlike you, golf is more that just self-gratification. When I answer questions, I try to pass on some information that might be appropriate. If the game was played without yardage for centuries then that show it’s a modern weakness and unnecessary. As for defending such a statement, that easy because I have searched the records and found no mention of yardage, I also mentioned I would accept it if written proof was found. However, I have been searched for a couple of years, have you – no, because you said who cares.

I do not consider that I am elitist. I do believe that through accident of birth I have a rich and strong connection to the modern game of golf and their founding fathers in both Golf Champions and Designers. I was going to list them, their Courses, Championships and my connection with each one, but that I expect in the eyes of many would make me appear even more elitist and arrogant.

I am here because of my family connection so I suppose I am expected to used it and convey information about it.

Mind you, nothing has actually changed, you need to use yardage aids to play golf, I don’t.  Therefore, I try to keep faith with my family, what your excuse could it be money or just victory at any cost.

Melvyn

[ed_getka]

JWinick,
    I have a question for you. Do you use a line on your ball to line up putts?

[Andy Troeger]

Ask yourself is it really good for the Game of Golf to be so reliant on yardage?

Yes. Personally I see no problem with golfers knowing yardages. Every spot on the golf course is a certain distance from the green/flag, quite frankly I see it as an advancement of the game for golfers to know that information. Yardage is only one variable anyway as others have mentioned.

I was taught the game using yardage markers and I see no benefit to taking them away.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the following argument for distance markers--the ball goes farther today. How far did the ball go in the 19th Century? I can eyeball distance pretty accurately from shorter distances, but it gets much more difficult the farther one gets from the hole.

Plus, does anybody really want to guess yardages on a hole like this? It might work on links courses, but I would argue not here...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Ed
I have a question for you. Do you use a line on your ball to line up putts
I know the question is not directed at me but I expect someone will so my answer is a big NO

Andy
You see it as an advantage, but that advantage is not from within the golfer but from outside sources, so you gained clearly but not through your own efforts. Please play the game you want and are happy with, but the only point that I am making is that golf is about the challenge. How can it be a challenge if you accept outside help? In addition, I do not believe that you or any golfer needs them to play golf. 

As for distances in the 19th century, yardages was not – to pacify those who don’t believe me, I will say - that yet no yardage reference have been found. However, I can give you information of scores over holes played in the 19th Century Competitions. One that clearly stands out, is the First Hole at Prestwick Golf Club, date 1870 a Par 5 578 yard hole. Young Tom was down in three. That was with the clubs & ball availably at that time. A record that even today I believe many top pros would find it hard to beat. So do not dismiss or underestimate what previous golfers achieved, you may be surprised. That’s history at work.

Andy, I believe you have perhaps just proved my point by asking does anyone want to guess yardage on that hole. You seem to look at the hole and need yardage info. I looked at the hole and noticed the hole, the closeness of the major hazards, concerns for overshooting. All about the architecture and shot but not anything regards yardage. That is the difference and through that I find that I enjoy my game knowing what I achieve is down to me totally. You have been taught to accept outside help with no feeling of guilt or perhaps of cheating yourself. Good for you, but tell me, don’t you ever want to face a challenge say like your photo without any help. For me I could not play 18 holes knowing I was reliant on outside help – I just do not see the point – help is help, end of story for me. Your game does not appeal to me in anyway, yet you can if you wish play without yardage information and probably still enjoy your round. I have no problem winning, loosing, however it must be achieved by my own efforts.

Melvyn

[Steve Lang]

  hmmm..

I started playing at 9 years old, my backyard neighbor Dr Shiff taught me how to grip the club and to hit the ball first, letting the club's loft do the work.. he never said anything about yardage.. just the higher the number the higher the flight, and simple observation of how high and far it goes on any given day was all that was needed to play golf..

those 150 yard bushes either side of the fairways i grew up with never said anything about yardage to front or back of green, but it was learned over time.. to have a mental yardage book from years of play is one thing

to ignore information and knowledge, if available, seems silly..

[Andy Troeger]

Melvyn,
With all due respect as I know it matters to you, this "outside help" thing means nothing to me. Golf clubs and golf balls are artificial objects, so are the cups and the flags. Golf bags, tees, gloves can be added to the list of artificial objects used in a round of golf, so to me adding yardage plates is perfectly consistent with the rest of the game.

The game is about fun to me--not challenge. Perhaps that's the major difference. Many modern courses, knowing that the golfer has technological advances (including the club and ball but also yardage information), have become even harder from a design standpoint to compensate. I have no interest whatsoever in tackling that hole without yardage information--sorry. I found it to be plenty of a challenge anyway!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Steve

Perhaps that is the best way to leave it. Yardage markers/aids are information and knowledge to you, but if you equate distance with the eye, it is totally meaningless to that person and with all due respect, I do not see how it’s silly.

In playing cards, if I saw the hand of a player I was playing against I would advise them. I believe that is the logical thing to do, well for me anyway.

Andy, we need a club and ball to play golf, however we do not need yardage information to play or are you now that reliant on it that you dare not play until you have your yardage input/update. It’s an aid with all the other items you more or less mentioned and the game can be played without them.

Nothing silly or daft, in fact if we reversed the situation and could bring back all the 19th Century golfers, I wonder how they would react to see how everyone seems so set on knowing yardage. Just perhaps they would feel it slightly addictive not to mention silly – well we will never know.

Hope all my American friends (well if I have any left who bother to read anything I write these days) are having a Happy Independence Day. Have a great time.

Melvyn 

[Steve Lang]

  MM,

i THOUGHT A PEEK WAS AS GOOD AS A FINESE! 

WHEN TILTING AGAINST WINDMILLS.. NO MATTER HOW GOOD OR HONOURABLE THE FIGHT, ONE IS STILL TILTED..

SEEKING TRUTH AND KNOWLEDGE,
STEVE

[Norbert P]

   "    (more?) proof that distance-finders WASTE time  "

                  Five pages of it here at GCA.


                        UNJUSTIFIABLE !!!

[Andy Troeger]

Nothing silly or daft, in fact if we reversed the situation and could bring back all the 19th Century golfers, I wonder how they would react to see how everyone seems so set on knowing yardage. Just perhaps they would feel it slightly addictive not to mention silly – well we will never know.

Very true...just like we don't all agree now some of them would likely think it silly and others likely would wonder why no one had thought up the idea quicker!    Happy Golfing yourself!

[ed_getka]

Ed
I have a question for you. Do you use a line on your ball to line up putts
I know the question is not directed at me but I expect someone will so my answer is a big NO.

Melvyn

Melvyn,
    I am quite confident you would never use a line on your ball. However, JWinick is being a little snotty in his responses and I am almost positive he does use one. Yet he has the nerve to write something about slow play in all capital letters being what is bad for the game.
  FWIW I really don't care about rangefinders. Ever since the long putter abomination was allowed I have been simply waiting for the day that golfers show up with an Iron Byron on the course and roll it around to hit shots for them.
    Thanks for the 4th of July wishes.

[JWinick]

Yup....

JWinick,
    I have a question for you. Do you use a line on your ball to line up putts?

[JWinick]

So according to your logic, if you use a line to line up your puts. you are a slow player?  That's ridiculous.   Again, I follow the rules as the USGA sets them.   If the USGA banned the line, I would get new golf balls.   I really have no position on the fairness of the so-called "cheater lilne," but I will use every legal way to gain an advantage in my play.  I apologize for being a competitor and enjoying the competition fairly.

If you take away rangefinders from people, they will then walk the ball off.  There's no question a rangefinder speeds play.   The reason I used caps is the fact that slow play is the number one issue affecting both the popularity of golf and the enjoyment. 

Ed
I have a question for you. Do you use a line on your ball to line up putts
I know the question is not directed at me but I expect someone will so my answer is a big NO.

Melvyn

Melvyn,
    I am quite confident you would never use a line on your ball. However, JWinick is being a little snotty in his responses and I am almost positive he does use one. Yet he has the nerve to write something about slow play in all capital letters being what is bad for the game.
  FWIW I really don't care about rangefinders. Ever since the long putter abomination was allowed I have been simply waiting for the day that golfers show up with an Iron Byron on the course and roll it around to hit shots for them.
    Thanks for the 4th of July wishes.

[ed_getka]

J,
   So as long as you are a "competitor" you can do whatever you want because it is legal and you don't give a crap if you inconvenience anyone, because dammit you are a "competitor". If you think for one second you can line up a cheater line without slowing play you are simply living in an alternate universe. BTW what tour do you play on?