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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2009, 07:02:13 AM »

Scott

Two wrongs don't make a right.  IMO, if its serious golf, nobody or any device should be giving the player info.  That said, I know I will never get my way, I just wonder how far down the slippery slope we all will slide.

Ciao



I hear you Sean.  To me, we all fell down that slope when our "woods" morphed into metal montrosities.

That being said, I've just recently been playing with a mate who has a sky caddie and I find it amazing how accurate my "distance eye" has developed over 30+ years of golf.  I am always within 10 meters and quite often spot on.  For my current game that is certainly good enough as my misses are a hell of a lot further off than that!  What I have found most educational is how the sky caddie provides the distance to the front of greens.  I've always been a bit of a pin hunter as my mind always thinks I can pull off the perfect shot.  Then when I inevitably miss left or right I find myself in some pretty precarious positions as that's just the way my home course is defended.  Playing to the front of the green is my new mantra!     

Scott

To be honest, I have only seen one these guns in action once at Edgbaston.  I recall a few yardages being shouted out which I questioned (of course slowing the game down!).  It was immediately apparent to me that these things are only as good as the users.  These knuckleheads were gunning wrong bunkers etc and coming up with stupid yardages that were clearly wrong just from a quick glance at 150 markers.  Heavy sigh.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2009, 07:37:38 AM »
The Heretics are out and about in strength again. Just because they cannot play the game without outside distance aids, they accuse those that who play the game in its natural and original way, numerous names.

These Heretics cry what about this or what about that, as well as mentioning that old chestnut ‘Caddies’.

I do not use Caddies, as I feel that game should be about the golfer facing his challenge and round from within.  I do not feel the greed, need to dominate others, beat them or even win, therefore I am not looking for that something else that will give me an edge. The problem is that edge is generated not by the golfer but by outside means. An analogy would be sitting an English exam with pen and paper only, accepting it as a true test of your ability or having the latest edition of the English Dictionary to your hand to help you over the difficult parts. Cheating, maybe but you are doing yourself a total disservice and ultimately you are the poor for the experience.

Yes, I want ALL distance aids removed leaving perhaps the length of course and each hole on the Tee & scorecards.  Quite rightly many on here who agree in part with my point of view, say it will never happen, stop beating your head and our against a brick wall. We know how you feel and share many of those concerns, but nothing will change, you are just becoming boring. OK, so I boring, but in my little way I am trying to make it an issue that gets up to those Men in their Ivory Towers who make the decisions.

Stick you head in the ground because you feel you can’t change things, that’s your choice, but those of us who believe its may be wrong, unfair, cheating or just allowing the weak minded golfer that he needs theses aid to play golf. The more of us that feel its wrong should say so, stand up and be counted instead of taking today’s modern path looking for the EASY WAY. There is no easy way, it’s a fight, but first we need to persuade the golfers that use them that they just don’t actually need them and have thus allowed these aids to take over their game (well the eye, brain, swing co-ordination part).

Therefore, by playing the game in the format it has been played for centuries we are labelled as Traditionalist, Purist, perhaps that Lunatic Fringe. However, what does that say about you and why you cannot play the real game anymore. You need outside assistance to measure distance, to help choose a club, to really help you think. Just think about it, if we are Traditionalists, then clearly you are Heretics, but I will not be calling in the Spanish Inquisition. Although I expect it will require much torture, a little stretch here or there (may improve many back problems), prior to burning on the Stake. St Andrews already has a Martyrs Monument behind the R&A Club House, which would do nicely for future Heretics to face their final test overlooking TOC.

The Rules as they stand are open to these outside aids, so play your game. However, don’t tell me or any other golfer that does not use yardage information in their game that you are honouring the traditions or Spirit of the Game – winning is what matters and many are happy to trample anything or anyone in their path to achieve their high (or should I say low, in this case). Is this what you want the modern face of Golf to represent to the World at Large? Apparently so.

As you have the right to use distance aids, others Caddies, then I have the right to my opinion in the hope that one day the Governing Bodies see the error of their ways and once again seek the golfer to play within his own means.

Melvyn 

PS You play faster without distance aids of any sort, plus you get the benefit of concentration on the game in hand without distractions.

 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:41:06 AM by Melvyn Hunter Morrow »

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2009, 07:53:34 AM »
I think for the average golfer a rangefinder will eventually slow down play. If we allow them, people will over time loose the ability to quickly assess distance by glancing over at yardage posts and sprinkler heads. Also if some people use them, others will want them as well, to avoid a competitive disadvantage. Think of courses which are busy and where range finders are common. A round there will easily be 4 or 5 hours. Then think of places in Scotland and Ireland where rangefinders are few and far between; a round there is 3-3,5 hours. If people in a casual tournament take forever to pace out distances, ask them what the purse of the tournament is or inform them that you're just going ahead and putt out, but don't put a rangefinder in his hand.

I do think the problem is not in tournament play, where as pointed out correctly, players will somehow find out the exact distances anyway. It's the casual rounds where people should assess the distance while they walk towards their ball and just get on with it, but now feel they should somehow pace out to the inch because they have seen somebody with a rangefinder recently. What's next? Windmeters?, humidity indicators?

I feel people should be correcting fellow players on slow play a lot more; if you walk up to your ball and you haven't hit the shot within 30-40 seconds afterwards, you are in my view interfering with other people's pleasure in the game. I would go even further; why not add a rule that, off the green, players cannot be more than 5 yards closer to the hole than their ball. Penalty: 2 shots.

I couldn't care less what people do in tournaments, but I do hope that we won't create a situation in Golf where people loose the ability to check their distances at a glance and feel they have to know the exact yardage to beat their mates in a fourball, because that is exactly what rangefinders do IMO!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 07:55:30 AM by Cristian Willaert »

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2009, 09:27:11 AM »
This argument took place in March.... and it stemmed from a previous argument which took place easily a year before that.  Do we REALLY want to go over all of this again?

I for one do not.  So let's try to recap:

The point remains that nearly all courses are clearly marked with distance information.  Golfers HAVE relied on distance information for many many years.  Melyvn says again that this is not how golf was meant to be played, and we should all rely on judgment - guess what - I AGREE WITH HIM.   I spent several days on another massive thread devoted to this trying to sell how that might work.  Shivas proposed a rules change that would facilitate it.  In the end, few bought it.  But I still believe that if all distance info was removed and we all had to rely on ourselves for this, the game would be better.

HOWEVER... it really seems that day is not ever going to come.  The genie is clearly out of the bottle and no matter how guys like ME - yes ME - and Melvyn preach - it's just not going to happen.

And this is where I logically part from Melvyn... he seems to want to crusade and preach and try to put the genie back in the bottle.  And more power to him for this.

I assume it's not going to happen, and move forward from there.  And if it is not going to happen - if courses are going to continue to be marked all over the place with distance information - then to me it makes logical sense to allow mechanical range-finding devices, because yes they do speed up play, for all reasons previously cited.

Yes, they are against the spirit of the rules.  Yes, it makes for a lesser game.  Yes, the situation rather sucks.

But until we remove all distance information from courses, it is the best we can do.

End of recap.  Can someone save this for regurgitation in another few months?

 ;D


Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2009, 09:56:13 AM »

Tom

Why do you think this subject keeps reoccurring because people care and perhaps feel there might just be a chance that things will change, so want to keep the subject near the forefront of the golfing debate. 

My friend, I fear you accept defeat all too easily, nothing in this world comes easy, and everything has a cost. The lives it took for you and me to have this debate, to agree or not, in fact to be even able to voice an opinion. It all cost and took years.

Perhaps because I live in these islands, I remember the weak and appeasing words of a weak man shouting with a piece of paper in his hand in 1938, ‘Peace in our Time’ a certain Mr Chamberlain. The bulldog spirit is what we need to make your point with our Ivory Tower lords and masters, not disinterest.

You are tired and do not want to listen to the debate, let alone continue the fight, no shame on that, that is your right and choice, so please let others who perhaps feel stronger about the issue continue their fight in the way they see fit.

Melvyn

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2009, 09:59:32 AM »
Melyvn:

As I said above, more power to you.  And I sincerely mean that.  You missed the huge thread that occurred during one of your exiles in which I vehemently argued for page after page about how great it would be for distance information to be removed, how a rules change could make it happen, and how we should all strive for it.  Please believe me, I fought the fight...

And I have not fully given up.

Thus my aim remains not to shout you down; I just provide a logical alternative in case OUR crusade fails.  And all evidence would show that failing it is, sadly.

TH

ps - likening this to WWII appeasement policies is taking it to a rather strong extreme, wouldn't you say?   ;D  And as for not wanting to go over it again, well... I find it boring more than anything... fighting the same fights here over and over and over again.....
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 10:03:21 AM by Tom Huckaby »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2009, 11:00:21 AM »
I think 99% of all golfers play at the same speed regardless of how many or how few fancy gadgets they have. If you're slow with a rangefinder, you'll be slow and indecisive without one, and if you're slow without one, they probably don't speed you up appreciably, you just find some other way to slow everyone else down.

I don't use a rangefinder for a myriad of reasons; speed of play isn't one of them. I'm basically on Melvyn and Sean's side, but that makes a whopping 3 of us. We'll probably never even make it up to double digits, so I'm not getting worked up about it.

I will simply add that I rarely pass up an opportunity to argue with Huck... :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2009, 11:05:39 AM »
While I understand (and love) that George...  Just remember that I am on the side of Melyvn and Sean about this IN PRINCIPLE as well. I'd love to see all distance information go away and have us play by judgment.  But again, so long as courses are marked, my feeling remains go ahead and give those who need the info such in a more practical and speedy manner.  I shall not argue any more whether or not these devices speed up play, because I have explained how they do countless times before - and it's restated in this thread yet again.  Choose to disagree with THAT PART if you will, but if you choose, you will be wrong.

 ;D


Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2009, 11:11:55 AM »
Melvyn,

When you are playing a par 3 do you reference the hole's yardage on the scorecard or tee box?

Here we are at the par 3 2nd hole.  Let me have a look at that card.  OK, here it is - 165 yards.  7-iron.

How is that any different than referring to the skycaddie, which delivers 165 yards to the middle, 154 yard to the front, and 180 yards to the back?

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2009, 11:21:17 AM »
Here we are at the par 3 2nd hole.  Let me have a look at that card.  OK, here it is - 165 yards.  7-iron.

How is that any different than referring to the skycaddie, which delivers 165 yards to the middle, 154 yard to the front, and 180 yards to the back?

I think you just answered your own question.

Of all the many fruitless arguments we have on this site, this one is probably the fruitless-est. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2009, 11:40:28 AM »
While using my newly acquired rangefinder during a 4:25 round today it occurred to me that we could really speed up play by adding a .22 long derringer function to the rangefinder. It would be legal during tournament play by local rule.
(It was the group in front who finished  1 1/2 holes behind.

Wasn't there a thread on this related topic some time last week?  As I recall some old timer in Austin pulled a gun on a threesome that had slowed him down.  Since Bushnell's yardage finders were originally developed for use by hunters, perhaps you are on to something here?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2009, 12:22:05 PM »

Scott

I do not mind the hole length on the scorecard or Tee marker, because I do not measure in that format. For me it is the simple basic eye, brain swing co-ordination that matters. As for the need for a Rang finder to decide which club to select as some in the past have mentioned, well I wonder if those individuals should be on a course in the first place. The only distance that matters is the final check between ball and pin, which is conducted by your eye brain co-ordination. If it works correctly and sends the right impulse to the rest of the body you get close to your target, how close is subject to skill and practice.

The point is after all the pacing out, checking markers, reading electronic aids the golfer still settles down to addressing the ball then the normal automatic system come into to play. The eye, brain swing co-ordination overriding everything else that the golfer has done prior to this action. The simple fact is that Golfers do not need yardage info, Period.

As for speed, well have played slow with some older players but never taken  5-6 hours a round, we seek value for money and like to squeeze 36 holes in a day play. Those who want yardage information seem IMHO to miss the real quality of the game – that you achieved it unaided, but how can you say that if you have had to rely on yardage aids.

Melvyn

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »
Melvyn:

That is all well said.

HOWEVER (and you knew this was coming).... I just think its easy for you to do, as you seemingly play on courses that aren't marked either at all or all that well with distance markings, and thus playing by your own judgment is fundamental and normal.

That is so completely not the case here in the US - and hasn't been for many decades - you simply have to bear with us who play a different way.  That is, even if we acknowledge that your way is the way the game "ought" to be played, we just never have done it that way, and it's damn hard to start now.

I now, I've tried.  I've tried to play rounds completely without reliance on distance information.  And you know what?  Even if the spirit is willing and the flesh is strong, it's damn near impossible on most courses... distance information is EVERYWHERE... bushes, sprinkler heads, tee signs, plates in the ground, etc.

So again, bear with us.  The game is just different here.  Yes the information is not NEEDED - the point is it's damn near impossible to avoid!

TH


Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2009, 12:37:09 PM »
Thanks Melvyn,

So I take it that when you play a course for the first time you do not reference yardage on the scorecard at all when playing a hole?

Do you keep score? Do you enter it on the card as you play or complete it at the end of the round?  Why do you keep score?

Reason I ask is the only true golf purist I've ever encountered was this hippie-type guy I used to work with many years ago.  He and his friends would never keep score and when he told me this I was astounded.  Me being in my ultra-competitive 20's at the time, I  could not fathom how anybody could play golf and not keep score.

As I enter my mid 40's and my scores steadily increase I am only now starting to understand their point of view.

Cheers


Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2009, 12:40:50 PM »
Scott - not that answering for Melvyn is anything but the most foolish thing I have ever done... but methinks he plays match play if not all his golf, then the HUGE majority of it.  And that requires no scorecard.

 ;)

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2009, 01:07:01 PM »
Sorry Huck, I should have started a new thread yesterday when I had a twisted epiphany that I needed to share.

While using my newly acquired rangefinder during a 4:25 round today it occurred to me that we could really speed up play by adding a .22 long derringer function to the rangefinder. It would be legal during tournament play by local rule.
(It was the group in front who finished  1 1/2 holes behind.)

Tom Huckaby

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2009, 01:08:18 PM »
Sorry Huck, I should have started a new thread yesterday when I had a twisted epiphany that I needed to share.

While using my newly acquired rangefinder during a 4:25 round today it occurred to me that we could really speed up play by adding a .22 long derringer function to the rangefinder. It would be legal during tournament play by local rule.
(It was the group in front who finished  1 1/2 holes behind.)


No hassles my friend - I read that and definitely chuckled.

There is a special place in hell for especially slow players.. and a really really special place for those who do not let others play through.

 ;D

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2009, 01:14:57 PM »
Though some believe theirs is the only way, golf (and life in general) is a big world (in the TEPaul context).  So long as I don't have to pay for other people's preferences, as Sean Arble recently said in another thread, live and let live (or was it to each his own?;  maybe it was vive la difference?).

Given that one is allowed to step-off distances- and there is no stopping it- what is the difference between that and using yardage books, marked sprinkler heads or monuments, range finders, or a caddie?

I am all for banning caddies from providing ANY advice.  The way things are going today all the way to the junior golf level, competitive golf is no longer between individual opponents.  Caddies have become mathmaticians, risk managers, psychologists, swing coaches, body guards, and policemen.  I am surprised that there is not a magazine ranking of the top X caddies.  I wonder how much time they spend with other "Team" members so they can act in the functional capacities during the round (I am fairly sure that  the rules prevent the player from obtaining the advice of his sports psychologists and swing coaches during the round).    

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2009, 01:50:18 PM »
Though some believe theirs is the only way, golf (and life in general) is a big world (in the TEPaul context).  So long as I don't have to pay for other people's preferences, as Sean Arble recently said in another thread, live and let live (or was it to each his own?;  maybe it was vive la difference?).

Sweet Lou

You got that right baby.  I don't like what is happening, but folks gotta right.  I do however find it very odd that people who are never going to amount to anything playing the game take it so seriously that they would spend the money and effort to buy expensive equipment to beat their mates or club members.  This sort of deal doesn't turn my world, but folks gotta right.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2009, 01:52:58 PM »

Scott

I play, or should I say when I last played, I take my score, I see the Tee Markers and distance on the scorecard, but it makes no difference to me as I don’t play by say oh that 150 yards. I look at he hole, try to notice the lay of the land, traps/hazards options of play /directions.  From all that I decide my club but not because it is, a 425 yard hole of just a 186 yard but from what I can see and where I want to go or try to go. Distance in the way you have become so hooked upon does not play any part of my game. The real point is that distance does not matter, its getting the ball in the cup with the minimum amount of strokes. Problem is that modern man believes that you have to be a big hitter, that I am afraid is rubbish, its can compensates for a poor finish at the pin. However, what you need is consistency, to miss the hazards and be able to finish the hole first time. 

We love in this day and age to overcomplicate the game, swamp the audience with facts and information that are quite honestly irrelevant just so the presenters have something to say to appear to earn their money. Keep the TV audience entertained, occupied and drown them in trivia, that what it’s about, but its killing the enjoyment of the game.

True distance is the mind sending that message to the arms to try to achieve that perfect swing, great contact with the ball, but ops the sudden gust of wind killed the shot, or was that the rain, so much for knowing distance. Golf is about trying to understand everything that relates to the shot, hence why I, like many others love a links course. Golf should not be made easy, it is what it is governed by weather, course and the mental condition of the golfer. Is it not the old story, it’s not the length but what you do with it, well I think that applies to golf too.

Scott forget distance, play the course, knowing your own ability, relax and enjoy the moment, perhaps your game after adjusting to a new way may improve because you are less stressed. It works for me, well it did when I last played.

Melvyn

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2009, 02:01:40 PM »
Sean,

I've long stopped trying to find the rationality of some choices people make.  I used to play golf with a factory worker in Ohio who was the club pro's favorite customer.  According to the pro, it was only June and the guy was on his fourth set of new irons.  The guy had a hard time breaking 90, seldom took a lesson, practiced infrequently, but he loved his equipment and played several times each week.  Come to think of it, this chap is the profligate consumer our leaders long for today.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2009, 02:13:38 PM »
Range finders are farcical, used only by dorks or the anal retentive (not that there's anything wrong with that).   To me it's not a pace of play or integrity of the game issue.  The ONLY issue is whether one is willing to be a fool for a four hour period in public.

Bogey
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 02:28:56 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

JohnV

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2009, 02:41:06 PM »
Melvyn,

We all must realize that you are a special person who has talents most of us would love to have.  But, not everyone is so lucky as you to have those abilities. ;)

But, lets assume we were able to develop those abilities as you say we can and we were to ban all information about distance from the game, how would that work?  Lets go back in time.

No rangefinders - Check
No yardage markers - Check
No yardage books for sale in the pro shop - Check
No 150 yard trees - Check
No yardage books made by the player - Check
No caddies to tell us the yardage - Check

So what am I left with?  Me and my brain and maybe a scorecard with the yardage of the hole.

Me and my brain have played the course multiple times.  I happen have a pretty good memory.  My brain, for some reason, knows that it is 125 yards from this bunker I'm beside to the green.  Should I forget that?

Or maybe I don't know that it is 125 yards, but I do know that with no wind on a normal day it is a full pitching wedge.  Even if I don't know how far I hit a pitching wedge, isn't that the same information just stored in a different fashion?

Now, I'm getting older and my brain isn't quite what it used to be.  So, I keep a little notepad where I write down  that the bunker is 125 yards from the green.  Is this against your "rules"?

What if instead of writing down that it is 125 yards I write down that it is a full pitching wedge when there is no wind.  Would that be somehow ok?

From what I read into what you are saying, a player should forget all prior knowledge he has about a golf course before he tees off for the day.  After all, there really is no difference between knowing it is 125 yards or that I would hit a full pitching wedge from there.  All the 125 yards does is let me process things in a different manner.

All of the above things you would want banned from the game just give me another way to get that basic information.  I, for one, don't mind the use of them.  I see how a range finder speeds up play when I watch players in tournaments where they aren't allowed pace off 50 yards to the green to get an idea of how far a pitch shot is.

Eric Franzen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2009, 02:50:54 PM »
The knowledge of distance is just one isolated and one dimensional piece of information. Even with exact yardage provided (by caddie or a battery operated gadget) we still need to have a clue about the strength and direction of the wind and understand the firmness and contours of the putting surface and the green complex.

...and for most of us it also comes down to actually executing the intended shot.

It's a great game. Amen.

Edit: Just saw that I basically echoed what Mark Chaplin wrote in post 23.

Bring your rangefinder to the 150yd 4th hole at Deal, I've hit every club between 3 wood and wedge to this hole. On windy courses the rangefinder gives a number but not the feel for the shot required.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2009, 04:18:22 PM by Eric Franzen »

Melvyn Morrow

Re: (more?) proof that distance-finders save time
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2009, 05:49:59 PM »

John, I did not realise that I was special, thank you for saying so but I really am not. I just try to play the game as it came down to me.

The long and the short of all your points relates to the fact that you have a major need to know distances. You cannot seem to play golf without distance aids and because of that, your reliance on distance grows each week.

It looks like most modern players have an addiction, that need which I expect at times may change into a craven to know the distance.

What happens to your game on courses that do not have or allow distance markers of any kind? Does your score collapse, falls away or do you just ignore these types of courses.

John, as for speeding up play that is just a load of total rubbish. Each player determines the speed of play. Perhaps your own game does speeds up but then you may be one of those slow players that shows little or no notice of his fellow golfers when on a course.

I am not special, I just had good teachers that clearly showed me how to play golf. That my score was the result of MY efforts and not reliant on some marker or artificial aid.  8)   

Why can you and those that use yardage information to play golf just admit that you need them instead of trying to belittle those who speak out against yardage aids? It must be because you are addicted, but just not Man enough to admit it.  :'(

They say the first step is the hardest, which is to admit your addiction, and then you may be allowed to join Yardage Anonymous. I hear they are doing great things. New members have stopped calculating the distance to the toilet from the bar and from their bedroom to the kitchen.  John, even with old age creeping on, you have an opportunity to free your self from your need for distance information, but are you man enough?   ;)

Melvyn