[Bill_McBride]

  Dixie Cup?

From conversations at and immediately after last October's Dixie Cup, I believe Palmetto and Camden are on the radar.  Mr. Whitaker?

Mike Sweeney, this would be a brief stop for you en route to Mountain Lake! 

Bill -We're working on it!!!

Glad to hear you'll be involved - that means some separation from the Buda Cup dates!

[David Stamm]

Adam, thank you for a first class job with this presentation. It's such a perfect looking place to me. Wonderful elevation changes, great placement of bunkers and the greens look very interesting. One could park it around the 15th green for example in the late afternoon and experiment with some chips and have a ball from the looks of it. Thank you again!

[Bill_McBride]

Adam, thank you for a first class job with this presentation. It's such a perfect looking place to me. Wonderful elevation changes, great placement of bunkers and the greens look very interesting. One could park it around the 15th green for example in the late afternoon and experiment with some chips and have a ball from the looks of it. Thank you again!

Dear Dr Mackenzie, er David Stamm,

You need to plan your fall travel around the Dixie Cup.  Play Palmetto with GCAers.  And have breakfast in a Waffle House.  You won't be sorry!   

[Sean_A]

Sorry everyone for just getting back - sleeping in during Spring Break!

-Sean, here are some pics that show off the site and landscape more...



Shared area between 10/8 that showed off the Pinehurst element with the love grass and scruffy sand. The curves of the waste bunker in the distance are directly at eye level, a cool designed look that makes you take notice



Going back, 11 greensite is to the immediate right behind the leaning tree, #6 behind it, #5 to the left of that, and #4 is way back. Shows off the openness and course presentation well.



Shot of the Cabin and scruffy areas between holes that contrasted with the quality of the turf on each hole's set-up and really made the course shine



Taken looking back down #5 with connecting fairway and bunker of #6.



Through the trees looking back at #8



As required on an adventure and picture-taking trek as this, the obligatory rear shot and the chipping plain before #6 green

I try to see if I can answer all the questions. For the hospitality shown to me and my father by Rhett and the staff in the pro shop, I'm giving blanket permission to anyone who wants to use these pics - I'd really be honored that they thought enough of our photography to use it. I wish I had one pic of the wooded cart path areas with stark red clay paths between magnolia trees and a shot of the hill left on #7. The paths take you in and out of the woods, and it feels like a time warp.

jeffwarne - Cabin (13) was my least favorite hole. Visuals are okay, but its really just a flat plain going up canted sharply to the left, flat area past the bunker, flat plain going up to the green. Little or no movement in the ground, and I kept wanting to see more of the bunker on the left. Most tee shots at Palmetto have something in the distance that grabs your attention on the tee shot and makes you jockey for position. This tee shot said hit it as far as you can with driver to me. Not the same kind of thought into design ideas. Plus, I hit my tee shot a little right of the right bunker edge and it kicked me down twenty yards left to right behind the pine tree, so I may have been frustrated somewhat. It just didn't seem to have much to it in relation to other holes at Palmetto, where there is so much going on with ground movement and bunkers that it stuck out. Tough hole, though.

Mark B. - you're right. 11, 15, 18 are all hillier - probably 9 as well. You just notice it more on 13 because its cleared out all around and the angles are sharp going up the hill. I loved the 2,3,4 stretch, because as far as architecture goes, nothing hits you in the mouth quite like the knob front right on 2, the false front/road combo on 3, and the gully on 4. High quality stuff. 7 carved out of the hillside is a lesson in simplistic design being stand-out and terrifying. 15 for combined natural ground undulations and designed greenside swales/valleys.

Anthony Nysse - you reminded me what I forgot to take of picture of. Every one of the markers had the name of a Tennessee railroad company stamped into it - don't know why, just stood out because we were in SC.

John Mayhugh - For my dad, it was a joy, because he was always a good short game player. For him, and anyone for that matter, hitting a crisp chip back up that mountain told him he was back as a golfer, and he played relaxed the rest of the day. Bogey from down there is a good score, because from that angle the green is about seven yards wide with deep bunkers behind and thick native to catch a shot too strong.

Adam

Thanks for the extra pix.  Since I heard Jeff W (so far as I can tell he tastes and mine in architecture coincide rather neatly) talking this course up I have wanted to play it.  Hopefully on my next trip to the Carolinas it can happen.  The Aiken, Camden, Palmetto trio just seems awesome. 

Ciao

[jeffwarne]

Adam,
Based on your stated tee shot outcome,could it be that you underestimated the demands of the tee shot on #13 and were hit over sqarely the head with the sledgehammer of subtlety?

Not every demand need be perfectly visually outlined from the tee the first time a player sees a hole.
There's plenty of ground movement on that hole (as your tee shot result demonstrated)

The one thing I miss about Palmetto is there used to be more scruffy Pine Valley sandy/scrubland like the picture in the foreground of #4.

It used to present where the new bunker is on #4 down the left (very natural)
short right of #4 green-perfect grass now.
In Crazy creek on #15,   #17 in the area between fairways.
Irrigation and Mr. Jones replaced many of these areas, and Hanse restored some and added a few new onesWaste areas) himself-but they're not nearly in "in play" areas as much as the old ones.

[Richard Boult]

http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/South%2BCarolina

[Adam Russell]

Jeff W.,
 I was pretty certain the hole would be hard, and it was after that cut that rolled right behind the lone pine. I'm with you with not outlining a hole every time for a player. All the comment was about was stepping up to the tee and thinking it looked somewhat different than the rest of course to my eye. I've only played once, so I'm far from a good judge on the merits of the particular hole. I'd need at least another round or two before I could say for sure. 

Speaking to your sandy/scrubland idea, wouldn't it be neat to replace the bunker with one of those natural waste areas, especially given the nature of the transition areas higher on the left around the cabin? I think it would be a great spot to showcase the landscape right in front of the players, and to be a good hazard to boot.

[jeffwarne]

Jeff W.,
 I was pretty certain the hole would be hard, and it was after that cut that rolled right behind the lone pine. I'm with you with not outlining a hole every time for a player. All the comment was about was stepping up to the tee and thinking it looked somewhat different than the rest of course to my eye. I've only played once, so I'm far from a good judge on the merits of the particular hole. I'd need at least another round or two before I could say for sure.  

Speaking to your sandy/scrubland idea, wouldn't it be neat to replace the bunker with one of those natural waste areas, especially given the nature of the transition areas higher on the left around the cabin? I think it would be a great spot to showcase the landscape right in front of the players, and to be a good hazard to boot.

Adam, that's what it used to be-in fact, I was having a hard time figuring out what bunker you were referring to

One thing I should clarify-Palmetto is a great place and in its' current state fantastic-Rhett Baker does a fabulous job in both building and maintaining and Tom Doak and Gil Hanse's guidance/work has been fantastic.

I do miss some of the older rougher features and sandy rough, but some were a function of irrigation, and some were a function of proximity and exposure to Augusta envy, and some were a function of the  choice of architect for renovation in the late 80's (Pine Valley is a better model for the vegetation,look, and soil)
Augusta National wishes it had such sandy soil.
Gil Hanse put in nice waste areas and bunkers(where there once was natural scruff), but there is no substitute for older scruff as it takes time to develop naturally.

[Adam Clayman]

The look certainly has changed a lot since the early eighties.

I'm not sure I care for the smoother look to some of the mounding. My memory does not recall it that way.

I'd be curious which archie's name is on that aspect?

[jeffwarne]

The look certainly has changed a lot since the early eighties.

I'm not sure I care for the smoother look to some of the mounding. My memory does not recall it that way.

I'd be curious which archie's name is on that aspect?

Three guesses-
hint:  it involves keeping up with the.........

Even to my untrained 26 year old eye in 1989 something seemed amiss

It was one of my favorite spots in the early 80's(no irrigation)-but few agreed with me
Aiken Golf Club(then Highland park) was the same.
They're both great now too-just different

[Ed Oden]

Adam, thanks for the thread and some outstanding photos.  I'll supplement them with a few of my own (sorry for the date stamp). 

The approach to #2.


A little closer view of the #3 green.


#4 from the tee.  While the left side may in theory offer a more favorable angle of approach, in my experience, the cant of the fairway is so severe that almost all balls end up on the right side of the fairway or in the right rough.  So I am not quite sure there is as much strategy here as portrayed. 


#9 from the tee.  The other par 3 get all the attention.  But this one is, in my opinion, the best of the lot.


From behind the #13 green with #12 in the distance.  For what its worth, I see no problem with #13.  Palmetto is not a particularly difficult course.  So #13 (along with #3 and #8) provides a bit of challenge amid the fun.


A closer view from the #16 tee.


The #18 green complex with the clubhouse overlooking.


Ed

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

I bet this place looks stunning in the early summer.  The terrain and routing remind me a bunch of Augusta CC.  If anyone ever needs a fourth, I'll make the 5 hr drive in a heartbeat.

[Adam Russell]

Ed-
 Thanks for the extra pics. Incredible the difference in presentation. I didn't recognize #2 in the first pic until further study - the rough left of the fairway bunker and the greenside rough would make the hole play much different than one connected fairway like I experienced. #9 (par-3 uphill) you called #8 had the left side pot bunker shaved down to collect, and made it easier to see. When we played the grass was higher, and I couldn't distinguish the bunker. I thought it was just a depression. When I missed left, I thought I was okay, but the bunker got me. As far as #4, I really think a short 4-iron draw from the back tees into the hill (which I don't have in my bag  ) would put you into a better scoring chance than down further right. The angle is so shallow coming from the right on that green. #13 is a good hole, it is tough, but it was just the least favorite out there for me. Very good pictures for comparison - Loved the backwards shot of #12 from #13 green

Jay-
 I'm trying to work out a date at Augusta C.C. right now, and I was curious about the comparision between the two courses as well. Hopefully I'll be able to report back with another picture thread in about a month.

[jeffwarne]

Adam,
a 4 iron off #4 tee?
I saw in the newsletter they had changed the tees there a bit due to congestion
Where's the back tee now? It used to back up to # 14 tee
It's about 270 or more(downhill) to that left bunker-I've always hit driver down the right

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Adam,

Augusta CC is a must visit.  The terrain and atmosphere look very similar to Aikin.  Obviously, the bunkering is a little different given the architect.  I've only played ACC once but I was very impressed with my trip.

Jay

[Mark Arata]

I was waivering about paying the freight to play this during Masters Week, but no more.....thanks boys!

[Mike_Cirba]

There is something about the sparse number of bunkers as well as their placement...and I think there is also something about the natural landforms only periodically broken by obvious man-made features...that is very elegant and gutterally direct, isn't there?

[Michael Whitaker]

Ed Oden Quote:  "Palmetto is not a very difficult course..."

Rest assured Palmetto can can test the best. We held the SCGA Amateur Championship there in 2006 and only one player was under par after four rounds... Jeffery Goff with a -3 total of 277.

Here is a link to the results: http://www.scgolf.org/amateur/history/2006.shtml

[Ed Oden]

Ed Oden Quote:  "Palmetto is not a very difficult course..."

Rest assured Palmetto can can test the best. We held the SCGA Amateur Championship there in 2006 and only one player was under par after four rounds... Jeffery Goff with a -3 total of 277.

Here is a link to the results: http://www.scgolf.org/amateur/history/2006.shtml

Michael, my comment wasn't intended as a slight.  I don't equate difficulty to quality.  I would make the same statement about NGLA, which is as good as it gets for me.  While I am sure Palmetto can be set up to play tough, most places can under the right conditions.  In my opinion, Palmetto is not a difficult course as typically set up for regular play.  To my eye, that's part of what makes it so much fun.  Would the course have the same charm if it were an unrelenting beast?

Adam, thanks for correcting me on hole number.  I will fix my earlier post.  As for club selection on #4, a drawn 4 iron may keep you on the left side, but will leave you with a long approach.  I play the hole as Jeff Warne does.  I'll take my chances with a short iron from the right side or even the rough over a long iron from a hanging lie.

Ed

[ed_getka]

Adam,
   Thanks for taking the time to share this course with us. Being new to the southeast I now have another course to add to the list.

[Adam Russell]

Jeff,
 I played up with my dad on that hole because you could barely see the natural gully from the back tees, which do back right up to 14. From the back you can only see the top line of the wash. From the front tee there it looked like a 4-iron down the left.  I figured that was the original tee, plus dad was in my ear because I three-jacked on #3 and he two-putted, so I had to bring him back down to earth 

[ChipOat]

I haven't played or seen Palmetto in over 30+ years.

What struck me about the pictures was 1) I didn't see any caddies and 2) how much $$$ has been put into both the golf course AND the clubhouse.

In 1976, PGC was the epitome of "shabby gentility"; the old locker room was virtually unchanged from Aiken's pre-WW II glory days.  You could get a sandwich at lunch but not much more than that.  The golf boom starting in the 1980's that really got some money attached to it in the '90s wasn't even on the radar screen.  Palmetto and Fishers Island were very much similar in those days.  Now both of them have fancy new locker rooms, etc.

Caddies and pull carts don't usually exist in the same venue.  Can you get a good looper at Palmetto anymore?

[Adam Russell]

chipoat,
 I didn't ask, but since I'm a caddie, I was looking. There wasn't a caddyshack a far as I could tell. If there used to be a crew there, they seem to have gone by the wayside. The course was fairly busy but void of white jumpsuits. It would seem like a good place to have a program...

[jeffwarne]

chipoat,
 I didn't ask, but since I'm a caddie, I was looking. There wasn't a caddyshack a far as I could tell. If there used to be a crew there, they seem to have gone by the wayside. The course was fairly busy but void of white jumpsuits. It would seem like a good place to have a program...

No caddies-never in my experience dating back to 1978 there.
Most Palmetto members are far too frugal for that. (thankfully so)
Chip-the lockerroom/pro shop was exactly as you describe until last year(except you could not get a sandwich- a hot dog machine only)
I preferred it the old way-still great, just slightly less unusual now.

lately it seems every other newsletter is chastising members about where they change their shoes.
Simpler the better in my opinion-still pretty simple though

[RE Blanks]

These are the first pictures I have ever seen of this course on GCA.   It is a great place.  I have not been back since the work has been completed but looks very very nice.  Anyone going to Augusta should put this first on their list to play.  Lots of history at Palmetto.  I hope they did not mess with the pro shop or clubhouse.  I dont remember the locker room looking like that.  Also, why didnt you take a picture of the urinal in the mens locker room with the wall mounted ashtray??  Classic...

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