Credit Where Credit is Due

[Jeff_Lewis]

AW Tillinghast or Joe Burbeck or both? That is the question.
Lovers of Bethpage have always been perplexed by the weakest set of greens ever attributed to Tillinghast. We always knew to some extent, he spent less time on this site than he had on the greats of his heyday, we just didn't know how much less. Now, we apparently have the story.

Tillinghast routed the course. He just delegated the remainder of the work to others. It is one of the great routings in golf and as good as any course as far as the fairway bunkering.

Burbeck built the course and did the finish work. The finish work is the work of an amateur that detracted from the overall quality of the project. Congratulations Joe! You ruined what could have been America's public Pine Valley!

I guess the only other question is why Rees didn't have the nads to put a little more interest in these greens while he was in there messing up the bunkers. Imagine if they ever let Crenshaw and Coore spice these greens up a tad. Wow.

[GeoffreyC]

Jeff

Exactly my thoughts as well.  

I don't think that Rees had a mandate to do anything to the greens except for #18 where the USGA realized that the old hole and green were not suited to a championship.  Rees built a much smaller green with some contour but probably felt that anything too wild would be out of character.

[Bruceski]

I guess the only other question is why Rees didn't have the nads to put a little more interest in these greens while he was in there messing up the bunkers.

Answers:
1. Budgetary constraints. Rumor has it that Rees WANTED to change a few more greens, but was denied the option.
2. Not a personal attack, but people like you inevitably would have crucified Rees for "messing up the bunkers AND greens". And, no one would be mentioning Burbeck's role at all.

[Jeff_Lewis]

Bruceski,

I love it when a personal attack is preceded by the statement "not a personal attack". What exactly are "people like me"? Did you see the bunkering at Bethpage before and after Rees? Did you think that some of the shapes aren't obviously out of place with the original intent of WHOEVER put them there? I like many of his courses, I would even call a couple of them "underrated". So please don't accuse me of bias simply because I have an opinion.

[Dan Kelly]

Jeff Lewis --

Joseph Burbeck ruined America's public Pine Valley?

Cheap shot, IMO.

Did Burbeck hire HIMSELF to do the job? Unless he did, I don't see how you can blame him for ANYTHING.

Where'd you get your facts? They seem to be in some considerable dispute -- as we learned in that earlier thread about Burbeck and Tillinghast, which I'll now bring back to the front page of this threads list.

[Jamie_Duffner]

Jeez - enough on the greens already!  I think with the threads started by Bruceski, particularly of the back nine (and wait to see 14, 15 , 16 a little, 17 and 18), we can see some contour to these greens.  No, they will never be confused with Oakmont or Oakland Hills, but these aren't pancakes either, other than 2 and 7, maybe 6 and 9

I really think some recontouring to the four greens I just mentioned would suffice, with some consideration for the 3rd green and maybe 16.  So there it is, 1/3 of the greens.  Perhaps a  little study of Winged Foot greens and let some recontouring work be done, maybe 2 per year for three years?

[GeoffreyC]

Jamie

I think the first green is really simple with a bit of slope on the front third.  I'd change that one too.

Then #'2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10 could use some help.  That's almost half of BB's greens.

Jeff- what do you think of Rees' bunker work at your home course and would that compare with Fenway and Gil's work there?

[Bruceski]

Jeff,

Yes, I did see the bunker shapes prior to the restoration by Rees Jones. They represented years of neglect and erosion, and their shapes almost certainly did not resemble the original shapes laid out 66 years ago. As stated 100 times prior to this post, Rees Jones tried to faithfully replicate the attempts of the architect(s) by using a 1938 aerial photo.

You used the words "messed up". Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. My point is that there are people with your sentiments who will refuse to give anyone but Tillinghast credit for the "greatness" of this course. On the flip side, all things "wrong" with the Black came from the work of Burbeck and Rees Jones. Had he took the liberty and changed the greens significantly, Rees Jones would have took it on the chin for "altering the original intent of the architect". My take: he couldn't win. I credit him for showing restraint, whatever his reasons, and (once again) doing it for free.

[Jamie_Duffner]

Maybe Tillie did the greens on the Back nine!  

I can live with the greens on 4 and 5.  4 has decent tilt, but who am I to stand in the way!  I also think 10 has decent tilt too, plus a bitch of a hole tee to green.

[Jeff_Lewis]

You think Rees did this for free out of the goodness of his heart? I guess I would rather be biased than naive.

[Tim Weiman]

Jeff Lewis:

As you know, there have been several prominent projects where the consulting architect is reported to have done the work for free.

I don't know whether all these reports are true, so even if the practice itself is not such a good idea, the criticism of certain architects on this issue may be overdone.

However, I wonder if the Bethpage example is a special case.  This is, afterall, a public facility.  Without private donations it would never have been able to host the US Open. What really is the difference between contributions made by the USGA and the donation of time by Rees Jones?

In my own consulting experience, you just don't get paid for everything you do.  That's just a fact of life. What makes the golf industry an exception to the way consulting works in nearly every other industry?

There is a difference between the quality of work Rees did and the financial terms.  Like you, I'm not thrilled with some of the bunker work (e.g., the 18th), but I don't fault him for helping to make the Bethpage US Open a reality.

[Jeff_Lewis]

And I would add that when I first heard about the Open and the ensuing work on the course, I was hopeful that Rees would have the freedom to add a bit more slope to some of the greens. So, to say that my bias would have caused me to criticize him for doing it is really just absurd. Clearly we are not talking about Oakmont or Winged Foot or even Fenway quality greens here. So, there is no "sacrilege" in attempting to improve them.

[Dan Kelly]

Just to clarify (possibly  ) what I was saying, about credit and blame and Mr. Burbeck Sr. (and one particular statement I called, inflammatorily, a "cheap shot"):

If you hire a guy to paint your house who's never painted a house before, and he does an inferior job, it's a cheap shot to say that HE "ruined" your house.

You ruined your own house! Hire a professional if you expect professional work! That's all.

I just don't think it's fitting to rip a guy (a dead guy, who isn't here to speak for himself) for being in over his head unless he was the guy who hired himself to be in over his head.

If there's any "blame" to be handed out here, I'd hand it to Robert Moses (or whoever else might have made sure that the greens would be as good as the routing).

[GeoffreyC]

Dan -  During the height of the depression I think that Robert Moses was not thinking of hiring someone to make world -class greens rather he was putting people to work! Don't blame Moses for keeping Berback in charge of the crew.

I believe the reaction here is due to the recent attempts to claim credit for a design that anyone who has studied Tillinghast courses could see was routed and bunkered by the man himself.  I don't believe those arguments about building tamer greens because the course is so hard from tee to gree.  Some of Tillie's hardest holes (9 at Phil. Cricket, 5 at Fenway, 18 at WFW, 9 at Rockaway Hunt) all have wild and interesting greens.

PS- Jeff - I agreed with your first part except for the part about Rees messing up the bunkers.  They don't look any different from the work he did at your course