[TEPaul]

Ian Larson said:
“I also find it interesting that courses built on sandy sites have even used it. Pine Valley.”

Ian:

While Pine Valley naturally is a very sandy site (which actually caused massive agronomic problems in the beginning) I should tell you that the greens there are a variety of types and construction methods. Up to six of them are what was known as the “Taylor Method” (which was considered to be a remarkable achievement back then (teens) and some call the precursor to the USGA spec green).

Some of the rest are probably some form of pushup but a number of them were probably rebuild (and redesigned in the 1920s). One, the 16th, is what they call their “natural green” in that the grass was simply planted right on existing grade with no subsurface construction at all.

I would say the ones that are still original to Crump’s initial construction are #2, #3, #4, #5, #10, #12, #13 and perhaps #18 but I say that no knowing which of those six were the “Taylor Method” redos. I do know that #1 is one.

By the way, the “Taylor Method” was a subsurface drainage construction method that relied on drainage patterns on a 45 degree angle. As to what the rest of the stratas were made up of I can't say. I do believe  Taylor may've actually patented his green construction method and so what the details of his construction methods were can probably be found on the INTERNET somewhere (actually I think I have them around this office somewhere).

As I told you the other day, Taylor was some remarkable man and seemingly a pure inventor as he is best known historically for his "Scientific Management Method" which has to do with employer/employee relationships and nothing to do with golf or golf archtiecture. Taylor also invented golf clubs.

Crump intended to redo all the greens to the “Taylor Method” (even though it was considered very expensive in that day) but Taylor died in 1915 and Crump in 1918 and so the rest were never done.

By the way, the sudden death of Frederick Winslow Taylor in 1915 seems to have been the main motivator for Hugh Wilson of Merion and Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture to begin the idea of forming what woulde become the USGA Green Section.

Today some of those Pine Valley greens have the XGD system but I don't know that all of them do. I sure know who to ask though.

[TEPaul]

Bryan Bergner:

What is a 7-2-1 mix?


"They do an incredible job putting the sod back perfectly.  I was worried at first, but they were seriously top notch professionals about it."

I'm very glad to hear that. Who out there who has experience with the XGD process has had some settling along the herringbone lines or perhaps even some heaving up in the winter? If that happened to even a small degree it would seem it might create some problems with mowing/scalping or whatever.

[TEPaul]

Since I noticed a certain amount of discussion on this thread about the herringbone lines of the XGD process perhaps drying out much faster than the unaffected areas between the lines, I'll throw this thought out there for what it's worth which probably isn't much.

Years ago when I got a basic "pushup vs USGA spec green" 101 lecture while walking around a site with Bill Coore, he did mention that water and drainage is a pretty funny thing to most people in that so many think that water basically drains straight down. Bill said that even on a slight grade given various conditions it actually drains more sideways than straight down, particularly subsurface, a whole lot more than most logically think.

Perhaps this might have something to do with why the herringbone lines of the XGD process work better drainage-wise and wet/dry-wise with the area between those herringbone lines than most might think.

[Bryan Bergner]

TEPaul,

The 7-2-1 mix is a combination of 70% sand, 20% peat humus, and 10% sphagnum peat moss.  We get ours from Waupaca Sands and Solutions in central WI.  We did rigorous soil testing to find a medium that would best represent the topdressing build up of the other push up greens.  The 7-2-1 was the best candidate. 

We actually took one green (chipping) and dozed off the topdressing build up.   Then reshaped the green and put the original topdressing back on.  This one also does not have the XGD system in it.  This green has now shown that it does not have nearly the drainage capabilities as the others.  Watering this green during grow-in was very a very delicate procedure. 

BB

[Tim Nugent]

Ian, sorry, the "pretty deep layer" I was referring to was a sand topdressing layer.  I am not "skeptical", Iam just trying to get information from those with experience with something I do not.  

It sounded like a pretty good solution to not having to take a green out of play for reconstruction.  Also, no matter how much care is taken, it is hard to replicate existing green contours with a recontructed green.  Also, unless all greens are reconstructed, they tend not to receive shots the same. So, there are reasons to look for alternatives to recontruction.

As a design professiional, one has to do due-diligence before recommending actions to a club.  I'm sure you are aware that for every solution one put's forth, there will be skeptic members who will ask questions aimed at discrediting that solution. We call these the "I'm smarter than the expert" members.  Hence, the reason for the questions I asked.

 Alan, Re: Is a groundbreaker too aggressive for greens? I experimented on a sandbased, bentgrasss practice green and found that if you have a creeper gear on your tractor, going slow at high rpms and setting the slicing blades to 2" yields a satisfactory slit.  It did brown out along the edges and took about 3 weeks to disappear.  This was done in June in Chicago.  If done in the fall, you probably wouldn't know it come springtime.  Just don't try to turn on the green, Keep the lines straight.

[Bradley Anderson]

For my concern, the time of year where drainage of low spots on greens, USGA greens notwithstanding, is in the winter when standing water is frozen before it sheet drains off the surface. If that standing water freezes into ice it can shatter poa annua crown tissue.

I don't think an XGD system will move that standing water off the surface, in the winter, if the ground is frozen. Or will it?

I have been thinking about doing a directional boring, under a push-up green, to one low spot that collects water.

My thinking is I could cap the pipe at 4 inches under the surface. And just before the ground freezes I would cut in a hole cup over the top of the pipe, pull the cap, and let the water drain to the hole cup and off the green all winter.

Anyone out there have any experience with something like this?

I was thinking that if this works well on the one really bad spot,  I could begin doing more of these on other spots. All of these pipes could be brought back behind the green, below the frost line, and connected to a tile line for out-flow. With directional boring, this system could be vertical at the source, and below the frost line at the outflow so it would never freeze.

The thought also occured to me that I could place center sod cups over these lines and pull them in the summer time during heavy rains. But that might be a little too ambitious.

Anyways, the old push up greens were not always built with perfect surface drainage, and the build up of bunker sand layers around the edges can block off some of the original surface drainage routes. Sometimes the organic matter buildup on the fringe can also dam water up.

For various reasons, push-up greens can become slow to sheet drain water off in certain areas, and the worst thing about that problem is the vulnerability that Poa annua now has to crown hydration and ice formation. I'm hoping I can find a solution to this, short of remodeling the surface - many of these quirky surfaces are wonderul playing surfaces with lots of quirck, interest, and character. But, agronomically, they can be difficult to manage.

[TEPaul]

Those are some interesting ideas, Bradley.

That kind of thing would seem to me to sort of fall pretty much into individual cases and situations though. For instance, don't you think it might be easier in some situations to just squeegy the water out of those low spots when it happens (near to freezing) or perhaps try to drain it out with a hose somehow rather than go underground with a drain and cap? I do realize that might take some additional close monitoring (given weather situations) and it would probably be "cold work" for whoever is doing it.

When I say this I really don't have much idea what the agronomic ramifications are if it appears the water is off the surface when it freezes even though it might freeze slightly under the surface.

[Bryan Bergner]

Bradley

You're right, the XGD does not deal with surface drainage.  We've had the same issues as you in the past.  We took the time during our reconstruction to remove accumulated "sand dams" that restricted free water movement and improve surface drainage.

[TEPaul]

Bradley and Bryan:

Let me ask you something. Even though I realize you would prefer not to do it (if there's a more reasonable alternative) would you consider sheet draining a green by removing a "sand dam" into a bunker?

Recently, I've run into more than one architect who's stated he does not see why in some cases sheet drainage could not be sent into a bunker.

[Bryan Bergner]

TEPaul,

I would not have a problem with that's the only feasible direction and the last resort.  The most important thing is to get the water off the green. 

[Bradley Anderson]

Tom,

When it's raining and ponding on a frozen green in the winter time, you really can't take a squeegie to it because there might be a frost layer one or two inches below, and all that water is being absorbed and held in a thin surface layer. Any walking or squeegie work on that thin layer of supersaturated turf will result in mechanical injury to the turf, not to mention severe footprinting. That kind of injury hurts bentgrass too.

The thing to remember here is the freezing water only damages Poa annua. Bentgrass can tolerate this situation.

[Bradley Anderson]

Bradley and Bryan:

Let me ask you something. Even though I realize you would prefer not to do it (if there's a more reasonable alternative) would you consider sheet draining a green by removing a "sand dam" into a bunker?

Recently, I've run into more than one architect who's stated he does not see why in some cases sheet drainage could not be sent into a bunker.

Sheet drainage can go to a bunker. The more sheet drainage the better.

One of the things you will see with this sheet drainage issue is: the last green on a golf course to have winter damage from crown hydration is generally the practice putting green. Why is that? Because practice putting greens sheet drain in every direction. Because they are flat and not tipped into the face of play, they need to be designed with five or so different ways for water to sheet drain. Therefore water does not have to travel too far to get off the green.

Some of the greens that have a lot of good pitch to them, can still have crown hydration in the swales because the swales have to carry so much of the water one direction, generally out the front and center. Some of those swales are still carrying water when the freeze hits, because they have to carry their own water plus the water of big areas all around them.

This is why I have always been a big fan of John Laid Low, and others, who encouraged the building of greens that were not all tilted in to the face of play. When we build greens that are built closer to grade, or canted in multiple directions, we will have healthier turf there. We will have less anerobic conditions there, and that all works in favor of deeper rooted turf.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

I don't think an XGD system will move that standing water off the surface, in the winter, if the ground is frozen. Or will it?

I have been thinking about doing a directional boring, under a push-up green, to one low spot that collects water.

My thinking is I could cap the pipe at 4 inches under the surface. And just before the ground freezes I would cut in a hole cup over the top of the pipe, pull the cap, and let the water drain to the hole cup and off the green all winter.

Anyone out there have any experience with something like this?

Bradley, I can't resist, it's called crazy golf all I'm picturing is a ball going down it and coming out off the green...

However, I actually kinda like the idea, my only two concerns would be finding the inlet every time and keeping enough of a plug on it to prevent a dry spot.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

 Alan, Re: Is a groundbreaker too aggressive for greens? I experimented on a sandbased, bentgrasss practice green and found that if you have a creeper gear on your tractor, going slow at high rpms and setting the slicing blades to 2" yields a satisfactory slit.  It did brown out along the edges and took about 3 weeks to disappear.  This was done in June in Chicago.  If done in the fall, you probably wouldn't know it come springtime.  Just don't try to turn on the green, Keep the lines straight.

Tim,

I guess it all depends on your tolerance for damage. I know the machine will work, it certainly is a great and easy way to add soil to a profile and/or create more drainage channels but I feel they are better utilized on a lesser maintained area. Personally I hate seeing machines like that creating that much disruption (again what I percieve as too much) on a putting surface.  If you can get away with it all the better.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Who out there who has experience with the XGD process has had some settling along the herringbone lines or perhaps even some heaving up in the winter? If that happened to even a small degree it would seem it might create some problems with mowing/scalping or whatever.

Heaving and settling will cause issues, however once the initial movement has finished, there really shouldn't be any more. When I did see it done the first few greens were perfect (the sod was replaced a little proud to compensate for settling) and once the lines aerated and topdressed (also to create drainage channels) they were perfect. A few of the later ones were not as good, I'm not sure why, maybe the install was rushed a little, however, it didn't take a lot to get them right and again once the initial settling occured there was no issues, except for them drying out quicker in the summer.

[Alan FitzGerald CGCS MG]

Just a couple of other thoughts that came up.

As for my opinion of these drainage systems alone not replacing a reconstruction, a number of the latter posts have covered that reasoning in an indirect way. As was mentioned water does not drain 'straight down' and as I said before, adding drains will only drain the immediate area near the lines, modifying the soils will help in getting moving water laterally to the drain lines. Another reason for the necessity to modify the soils are low areas; unless a drain is running through the low area (again when I saw these installed they were run through the low areas) you will end up with a puddle; modified soils will help getting the water to the drains. Then there are the benefits of freer draining soils being better aerated, (but that's a whole other topic).

Lastly, there is another issue no-one came up with; Restricted pin placement, you can't cut a cup in a drain for a number of reasons but mainly because when you return the plug from else where in the green you are contaminating the free draining medium.....

[Ian Andrew]

I've been involved with a number of clubs on the list. I'm a big fan of the method they use and it's helped save a number of grens from being redone. It's not cheap, but certainly has improved the turf quality on a number of poorly draining greens.

[Bradley Anderson]

I don't think an XGD system will move that standing water off the surface, in the winter, if the ground is frozen. Or will it?

I have been thinking about doing a directional boring, under a push-up green, to one low spot that collects water.

My thinking is I could cap the pipe at 4 inches under the surface. And just before the ground freezes I would cut in a hole cup over the top of the pipe, pull the cap, and let the water drain to the hole cup and off the green all winter.

Anyone out there have any experience with something like this?

Bradley, I can't resist, it's called crazy golf all I'm picturing is a ball going down it and coming out off the green...

However, I actually kinda like the idea, my only two concerns would be finding the inlet every time and keeping enough of a plug on it to prevent a dry spot.

Alan,

I forgot to mention that part about the windmill. 

[TEPaul]

"Lastly, there is another issue no-one came up with; Restricted pin placement, you can't cut a cup in a drain for a number of reasons but mainly because when you return the plug from else where in the green you are contaminating the free draining medium....."

AlanF:

Very interestng point. I sure wouldn't have thought of that.

[TX Golf]

Anyone know if there is a reason why this hasn't even been used on a West Coast course?

Seems like there a quite a few areas with significant rainfall and usually wet greens that sure could use it.

Robert

[Greg Cameron]

 2" slit drains have become very popular here on the wet coast, yet I haven't seen greens done,only fairways.2" sock pipe,1mm sand,5' centers,maybe 2km per fwy.Company is TDS,from Ontario,results are awesome.Engineering company is KellyAmi of Montreal.year round winter golf

[John Gosselin]

XGD or any other drainage systems are an investment in not rebuilding greens. It is a great alternative for many clubs for a variety of reasons.

preservation of original architecture
drain greens with little down time as compared to rebuild
cost

I researched several methods of draining older push up greens and have tried several. The method XGD uses works the best that I have seen.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Anyone know if there is a reason why this hasn't even been used on a West Coast course?

Seems like there a quite a few areas with significant rainfall and usually wet greens that sure could use it.

Robert

Bumping this 4-yr old thread. 

In that timeframe, it seems that the "portfolio" of XGD projects has not really expanded much on the West Coast...only a few examples.  Any further thoughts on that?

Also, any updates from clubs that did the work 5+ years ago about long-term performance?

Thanks.

[BCrosby]

This is a fantastic old thread. If I read it at the time, I've since forgotten it.

As the Green chair at my club, I hope we will hear from more supers re: current developments in green drainage technology.

Bob

[Thomas Dai]

Interesting stuff, as was the earlier thread along a similar line.

A couple of questions if someone can help.

1) Does anyone know if XGD has been used in the UK?

2) I've heard of a method called I think, vertical drainage - where you drill down right through a push-up style clay-lined green with a 6 inch size bit. This is apparently done in a pre-determined spaced pattern all over the greens surface, maybe up to 100-300 times, and then the holes are lined and back-filled with a porous material. Has anyone heard of this or tried this approach and if so was it successful?

All the best

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