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George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
There were two side by side polo fields at Piping Rock (of course) and I understand there was a race course around the fields (hence the abrupts), the race course was abandonded before the polo fields were abandonded. It all adds great character to some of the holes, in my opinion.

Dates?      I have no idea.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

SPDB & TEPaul,

The viewing stands in the back of the clubhouse in the photo presented look to be temporary/movable, and, they also seem to have a low profile.

The structure in the photo from # 9 tee appears to have that same low profile.

While I don't have any evidence to support my theory, it would seem logical to construct, permanently or temporarily, a structure on # 8 that would replicate in theory and practice, the railroad sheds at # 17 on TOC.

CBM was intimately familiar with the relationship between the tee and fairway at # 17 at TOC and the intervening structure between the two.

It would seem logical that he would create a permanent or temporary feature to serve his purpose on # 8.

It would be great if the club had old aerial and ground level photos from the early years.

George Bahto,

The banking in # 7 fairway at Piping Rock is a mirror image of the banking in the fairway at # 7 at Somerset Hills, where a racetrack was incorporated into the golf course.

TEPaul

"CBM was intimately familiar with the relationship between the tee and fairway at # 17 at TOC and the intervening structure between the two.

It would seem logical that he would create a permanent or temporary feature to serve his purpose on # 8."


Patrick:

I don't believe Macdonald constructed anything on #8 as far as what we see in that 1913 photo with that structure. I think he simply found it was there and used it for golf as TOC did on the Road Hole.

« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 11:23:17 PM by TEPaul »

Chuck Brown

  • Karma: +0/-0
No more polo at Piping Chuck. But they did play it there for quite a time and during the time the area was a practice range. When you think about it there would be no reason not to play on the practice range. All they had to do is put up the boards and the goals.

Don't short-change yourself about polo because you come from the Midwest.

I'll tell you a polo story about the Long Island polo world and the Mid-west which is pretty danged amazing.

Apparently the best American polo team ever assembled was the Meadowbrook team (Long Island) from the 1930s and just before the war. All of them were ten goalers. I'm not sure there ever was another 40 goal polo team that played together regularly. I know that two of them were Tommy Hitchcock who was considered to be the best polo player probably ever and another guy who was a good friend of my Dad by the name of Stewart Iglehart. Stewart was considered perhaps the finest rider polo had. Another member may've been Pete Bostwick but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, one time I played golf with Stewart at Gulfstream in Delray and after the round I went over to his house which was right next to the clubhouse. He showed me a photo of that 40 goal Meadowbrook team. He said they referred to it as "high-speed" polo and he said that team essentially just never lost, they were virtually unbeatable.

But then he said when the war came all of them went out to some Army base I think in Kansas which had been an old traditional cavalry base. They all brought their polo ponies out there with them so they could practice on their time off. They didn't think they could find any games out there but someone told them some of the cowboys out there played polo with their quarterhorses.

So the Meadowbrook team got a game against the cowboys and Stewart told me the cowboys beat the shit out of them. I asked him how in the world that could happen to the reputed best team in the world and he just said they wondered that themselves since they'd never heard of those cowboys or their polo.

He said they were incredible riders and their polo ponies were better than anything they had (many of the horses in polo were quarterhorses).
Right now, I want the movie option for that story.  Without doubt, the best non-golf story I have ever read on GCA, which is saying an awful lot.

Tom, I have actually hit practice balls on the Polo Field in Oak Brook Illinois that is part of the broad complex of land (Butler National, Oak Brook Muni, a park, the polo field, a school, a library) that Mr. Butler donated to the suburban Chicago community decades ago.  A local who knows that area well might ask why not go over to hit balls at the fine Oak Brook muni range, and the answer naturally is that my Labrador couldn't run around on the real golf range...

Patrick_Mucci

"CBM was intimately familiar with the relationship between the tee and fairway at # 17 at TOC and the intervening structure between the two.

It would seem logical that he would create a permanent or temporary feature to serve his purpose on # 8."


Patrick:

I don't believe Macdonald constructed anything on #8 as far as what we see in that 1913 photo with that structure.

I meant to use the word "incorporate" instead of "create"


I think he simply found it was there and used it for golf as TOC did on the Road Hole.


TEPaul

Patrick:

I agree with you! Isn't that shocking? Or I suppose I should more appropriately say that you agree with me which is even more shocking!

TEPaul

Robert Ball:

If I may ask, where did you find that 1912 photo on Reply #42 of the stands and crowd and rail at the race-track at Piping Rock. I've never seen that one before. Very interesting indeed and it seems to play right into the logic of some of the things we see on some other very early photos of Piping Rock.

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

I suspect that the same type of temporary bleacher was positioned by the corner of # 8, replicating the 17th at TOC.

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Pat:
What makes you suspect that? This is all a bunch of speculation based on something appearing in Dev Emmet's article, the exact nature of which is unclear. If the grandstand or structure played so prominent a role in the 8th hole and was utilized by CBM to replicate the railroad sheds as you and Tom have suggested, don't you think that would be remarkable enough for Emmet to have mentioned in his article? But no mention of it was made. Why is that?

Patrick_Mucci


Pat:

What makes you suspect that?


Deduction.


This is all a bunch of speculation based on something appearing in Dev Emmet's article, the exact nature of which is unclear.

It's more than that.
A formalized structure is clearly visible in the photo taken from behind the 9th tee.
We now know that bleachers, temporary or permanent, were employed for viewing at Piping Rock.
Is it that much of a quantum leap for you to imagine that bleachers were used and located farther out on the property, in the area that would present them as a faux railroad shed for the 8th hole ?

We also know that Macdonald had an intimate understanding of the Road Hole and its component pieces.

Put them all together and one can suspect or prudently deduce that the structure was a grandstand that served a dual purpose.

Is it logical to conclude otherwise ?


If the grandstand or structure played so prominent a role in the 8th hole and was utilized by CBM to replicate the railroad sheds as you and Tom have suggested, don't you think that would be remarkable enough for Emmet to have mentioned in his article?

Not necessarily.

I don't think you can conclude that just because he didn't mention it, doesn't mean that a grandstand didn't exist.

A feature, be it a bunker complex, railroad shed or bleachers is an inherent component of a "Road Hole"
Without it, the hole has lesser value.
It's hard to imagine Macdonald designing such a great Road Hole green at Piping Rock while leaving out a, if not THE, critical feature, the representation of the railroad sheds.


But no mention of it was made. Why is that?

I'd have to ask Emmet.
However, he might not have mentioned it because a structure/feature was inherent in the configuration of the Road Hole at TOC.  That structure/feature manifests itself as a bunker field at NGLA, yet, few, if any, when playing or describing # 7 at NGLA, mention the railroad sheds as the equivalent feature.  Yet, we know that CBM conceptualized, designed and constructed that bunker field as his replication of the railroad sheds.

Why is it such a stretch to imagine that he used viewing bleachers on a race track for the same purpose at Piping Rock ?



TEPaul

Patrick (and SPDB):

I have no idea if that structure that shows up in that photo in Emmet's 1913 article on Piping Rock is permanent or temporary and of course its use as a prominent design feature (replication of TOC's Road Hole original railroad sheds) is speculation on my part at this point.

Discovery of and speculation on various very old design features are after all the raw material of how discoveries are made today of what once was or might have been.

What I do know from that early photograph is that structure had to be carried from the original tee to get a drive out to the right side of the fairway on that hole (that original right side fairway is now gone and may've been obsoleted many decades ago) but that does not mean Macdonald did not design it or use that structure as a replication of TOC's Road Hole railroad sheds. What I also know from that Emmet article and that photo is that hole was in play and that structure was there (including that subsequently obsoleted right side fairway).

If you, SPDB, are trying to tell me neither were there in that photo all I can tell you is I don't think you're using your eyes very well.

TEPaul

Patrick:

That structure we see on that 1913 photo of the 8th and 9th holes of Piping brings up a whole lot of really interesting questions, in my opinion.

Even though I grew up at Piping Rock more than any other golf club, and my recollection of the club and course goes back to the 1950s, one thing I know virtually nothing about is what the club was all about before Macdonald's golf course was built.

Macdonald himself tells us a number of prominent men from Piping Rock (he names them) asked him to build a golf course there in 1911.

What I don't know now and never have is when Piping Rock as a club was founded and for what purpose or even where. I would like to know if the club was formed around 1911 too or at some earlier time. If it was considerably earlier, then one wonders what exactly was going on at that club before Macdonald's golf course. Or even if they may've had some course there previous to his.

Obviously the club must have some records of all this (just last week I got a call from the USGA wondering if a history book of Piping Rock has ever been done---that I do not know).

In any case, if the club existed well previous to Macdonald's course what were the recreations there and when was that massive clubhouse, racetrack and polo fields built?

Macdonald himself tells us he had some problems with the horse interests at Piping Rock and putting holes where he wanted them. The long-lasting story is that he wanted to put holes where those two polo fields were just below the back of the clubhouse (the present large putting green and mammoth practice range today).

The only reason I mention any of this is because if the race-track and polo fields preexisted Macdonald's golf course at Piping for some years those structures we see in some of those early photos such as that structure on #8 and the stands below the wall behind the clubhouse probably were intended to be permanent. The reason is obvious----eg that track was certainly permanent as were the two side by side polo fields basically in the middle of that track probably because it wasn't for another couple of decades that that area even began to be used as a golf practice range (that may not have happened until the late 1940s or even 1950s).

I have also always heard that the reason Macdonald could not make #8 a Road Hole of the length of TOC's is because the horse interests would essentially not allow him to put a tee for the hole within what was then the far polo field, and so he put the tee in both short and to the left behind it.

I even remember many years ago (probably the 1950s and early 1960s) when the club was thinking about extending the tees on that hole back and to the right (where they are now) and that my father resisted that idea. I think the reason was that area was where he used to practice with his own practice balls just about everyday. Eventually he shifted his practice position with his own balls to the very far right side of that enormous range along the dirt road that still runs out to the 10th tee.

(Pat, here's an interesting story to do with that range and where my dad and I used to practice way off to the right. When I was in my early 20s I was hitting Dad's own practice balls in that area. I was way out there picking them up. It was near the evening and I could just see one person in the near darkness still hitting balls where golfers practice on the range. He must have been over 225 yards from where I was. To my amazement I watched him turn in my direction and swing and even if there was no way I could see it coming in the loaming a golf ball whizzed right past my head. I was furious as I watched that guy walk back to the clubhouse. I jumped in my car and raced back to the pro shot and asked them if they knew who that was on the range. They said they didn't but because it was so peculiar and so dangerous (if that ball had hit me in the head it could've killed me) I followed up with it and eventually the pro told me he thought it was Mike Long, the pro at GCGC. I'd played with Mike Long at Gulf Stream and he was one amazing player with some swing. But to my amazement they also told me that Mike had just been institutionalized!)   :o ::)

I'm going to try to find out when that club was formed and what the story was with the horse world at that club before Macdonald's golf course if that was in fact the case. That should probably tell us a lot more about what that structure on #8 was and whether it was temporary or permanent back in 1912-13 in that photo.

TEPaul

Pat:

Silly me. I just remembered that when you drive in the front drive at Piping Rock there are a bunch of big old dark green structures immediately to your right just inside the entrance to Piping. Those things were the old stables at Piping!   ;)

The maintenance dept is in a part of them closer to the clubhouse. They must have had a ton of horses stabled at that club in the old days. The question to me is by how much did all that (the hunting/riding/polo and racing interests) precede Macdonald's golf course?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:52:58 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

After seeing the pictures of the bleachers, I stated that I "suspected" that the structure seen in the old photo might have been a bleacher.

It could have been a stable as well.

I don't think it's a stretch to think that CBM incorporated a structure into the 8th hole, afterall, that's part of what makes the 8th hole a "Road Hole".  A structure/feature, be it a stable, railway shed, bunker complex or hotel is an integral part of a "road hole", and CBM knew that.

SPDB seems shocked and seems to want to disavow that CBM might incorporate a critical element or feature into his road hole.  Does it make any difference as to the identity of the feature ?

What's more significant is the LOCATION of the feature

I'd like to spend the day with you taking deep core samples to see if a foundation or similar foot pad lies beneath the turf in that area.  That would seem to present conclusive evidence of CBM's intent.

TEPaul

"It could have been a stable as well."


Pat:

I don't think there is any way at all---none, that that structure in that photo of #8 and #9 could've been stables. That just makes no sense, and certainly not when one considers the size and extent of what the stables there were (on the driveway).

I think what that structure had to be was either a mini-grandstand (which would make sense for a mile and a quarter or mile and a half horse race, given that track might have been a mile in total length). And if it wasn't that I would say it may've been a moveable starting gate set. Have you ever actually looked at about a fifteen horse starting gate set? Well, I sure have and they look just like what that thing appears to be.



"What's more significant is the LOCATION of the feature."


Exactly. When George Holland first came up with that photo on here it occured to me that it is placed precisely in the line of play to the old obsolete right side of that fairway in 1913 when that hole was first put in play. That's when Macdonald was there. I have no idea either why SPDB is so shocked. He seems to be upset that we're being speculative. Of course we are-----that's where the determination of previously unknown things from back in that day start---eg with some informed deduction and informed speculation.

Perhaps the reason he's so shocked is he, like Moriarty, wants to turn this DG into something like a courtroom procedure! Isn't SPDB a young lawyer? If not he sure seems to want to act like one on here.  ;)

« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 12:37:57 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

I"d still like to core or magnometer the area.


TEPaul

"TEPaul,
I"d still like to core or magnometer the area."



If you value your safety, I'd ditch that notion if I were you. I'm pretty sure there're some dead bodies and such out there under some of them there holes. Why do you think so much earth was moved to create that redan? I think about three and a half families are under that green.

Patrick_Mucci

TEPaul,

You forget, I live two blocks from Tony Soprano, we're used to those finds.