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TEPaul

"Now what I think would be a more intriguing question is what happened to that abruptment that use to run from the 6th hole across the 8th, behind the 9th green and down the right hand side of 10.  The abruptment still bisects the 7th hole and it is a really cool little feature."

SPDB:

I've never had much interest in horse racing or the history of it (other than one brief time in my life ;) ) but having grown up around Piping Rock I've always been aware polo was a big deal there once (I believe I do remember a few polo matches at Piping when I was very young). I've always heard there was a racetrack at Piping Rock and that certainly wouldn't surprise me given who some of the membership of that club was and their enormous power and participation in the American horse breeding and horse-racing world (note the Phipps and their control within The Jockey Club or the organization that ran American thoroughbred racing). 

I've always assumed if there was a race track at Piping Rock it probably encircled the polo fields and I've always been aware of what you are calling abruptments, and the vestiges of them that seem to encircle some of that area. In the old days it took a pretty good drive to get it over the drop-down that crosses the 7th fairway. I suppose one could track as it swings left and creates some of the fall off on the right side of the 6th, as well as its prominence as you mentioned to the right of the 10th. If a track encircled that area (as I've always assumed it did) it might have been a mile or a mile and a quarter which would have made sense if it was a full-blown thoroughbred race horse track.

Let's say a race track did encircle that area once (around the polo fields along the 10th, behind the 9th, across the 8th, 7th, turning left down the beginning of the 6th and along the 2nd and 1st, that might have been a mile or a mile and a quarter. If horses were started in front of the clubhouse it might make it a mile or even a mile and a half to get back to where that building (or whatever it is or appears to be). That would make sense given a traditional thorughbred horserace around a mile and a bit above and below the mile mark, to a mile and a quarter and even including the famous ultra long mile and a half of the Belmont (last leg of the Triple Crown) and the jewel in the NEW YORK metropolitan area horseracing scene that very much was the purview of the Phipps and Whitneys and Woodwards and such who were all in and around Piping Rock Club back in those days.

If that building is not a mini-grandstand it might be a really large transportable series of gates but it looks a bit large for that, even at Belmont.

The point is that golf course very much looks to be in play in that photo and that structure is very much there in a line between the old original tee and the right side of that fairway which is obsoleted today but nevertheless looked to be the ideal angle to approach the length of that green. For a few semi-famous and well known reasons that particular "Road Hole" of Macdonald's was very short----eg around 350-360 yards.

My point is if that structure was not movable somehow it would not surprise me if Macdonald used it just as the old railroad sheds were once used on the Road Hole at TOC.

All this would probably not be hard to figure out today by checking the early history of Piping as well as some of the people from the old New York thoroughbred horse racing world.

To me that structure in that area in that old photo was a pretty big surprise but just as big a surprise to me is how much all that fairway on the right was obsoleted years ago. To me that building and that obsoleted rightside fairway very much tie together to mimic TOC's Road Hole drive and one of that old hole's most interesting high risk, high reward strategies!

When I grew up at Piping in that general area they had planted trees but one didn't drive over them because by that time all that fairway on the right was gone too.

« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 07:57:16 AM by TEPaul »

Charlie Goerges

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Tom, in looking at the structure in question I must say that it could be anything; an abandoned cotton gin, the secret entrance to GACAAF, a tackling sled, you name it. ;) ;)
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

SPDB

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Tom:
There most certainly was a racetrack at PRC, the rough contours of which you describe in your post.  PRC was an important center for amateur horse racing (due in part to some of the luminaries you cite, including also H. Payne Whitney).  In pictures I have seen , there was a rail on the track, similar to what you might see at a more formal track like Belmont, but such a rail is not evident in Emmet's photo. Evidently, there was also a number of extensions off the course for hunts or other cross-country affairs.

I'm not disputing that what appears in your photo might be a grandstand, it is entirely possible, but I just think the photo is a bit inconclusive.

What I am more interested is the ground level vestiges of the actual racetrack or chases around the property were integrated into the course. I believe that the abruptment i cited in my earlier post (which still bisects the 7th) is maybe an example of vestigal parts of the racetrack still extant on the golf course. Also, check the following link, and you can see an aerial from 1960, where you can clearly see the abruptment running from the 7th hole across the 8th, behind the 9th and down the right side of 10.

CLICK HERE FOR IMAGE

Also, did you know that there used to be a cross-country golf course set up in the winter that ran from PRC to Nassau CC, where players would follow a course across neighboring farmland and estates? 


TEPaul

"...but such a rail is not evident in Emmet's photo. Evidently, there was also a number of extensions off the course for hunts or other cross-country affairs."


SPDB:

For as long as I can remember there've been stories around Piping Rock about the beginnings of the golf course and Macdonald's dissatisfaction with Piping Rock's polo and horse interests and their dissatisfaction with him (the world of horse recreation and sport preceded the golf course at Piping Rock Club). He cryptically refers to it in is book, "Scotland's Gift Golf." "In 1911 Roger Winthrop, Frank Crocker, Clarence Mackay and other Locust Valley friends wished me to build Piping Rock Golf Club course. I found they wanted a hunt club as well as a golf-club. Some of the leading promoters thought golf ephemeral and hunting eternal. Consequently I had my troubles. The first nine holes were sacrificed to a race-track and polo fields. However, all's well that ends well, to to-day golf is King and Queen in Locust Valley."

I don't know the particulars of the dispute but for years I heard Macdonald wanted to use the polo fields for golf holes and the polo interests at Piping wouldn't let him (I think this specifically influenced the length of his Road Hole too).

I've also always heard there was a race track at Piping and I've assumed it encircled the polo fields (and more) in the area I described in another post above. If it was a typical mile long track that would make sense.

As to the 'abruptments' you speak of---I've been aware of them all my life and if they did have something to do with a race track (which seems logical to me) they were probably done to create a mile long track that was fairly flat----eg after-all thoroughbred horse racing is often referred to as "flat track racing." ;)

I've always felt that there is some elevation rise from around where the golfers hit balls at the range (which I've always assumed might have been where races began and ended (if they were of say a mile length)) and the area of the 7th fairway and the 6th hole where a race track probably swung left.

I've never seen the photos you refer to of the race-track with rails. I'd like to see them. As for why the rails don't appear in that 1913 photo in the Emmet article of the 8th and 9th holes, I think that's pretty obvious---eg the race-track had probably been taken out of active use in favor of the golf course. As for the continuance or polo at Piping, it was something that continued for quite a while because even I remember some polo matches on those fields in the area that is now used exclusively as the practice range. Obviously there is nothing particularly mutually exclusive with playing polo matches on land and turf that is also used as a practice range for golf.





 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 09:17:57 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

George Bahto,

Could you post the complete 1950 so that we could compare it with the 2004 aerial that Charlie posted.

Thanks

George_Bahto

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If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Charlie Goerges

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George, I hope you don't mind, but I increased the size of the 1950 aerial and sharpened it to put alongside the new version.




« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:22:32 PM by Charlie Goerges »
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

SPDB

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Why repost all the pictures that are already contained in the thread? Perhaps if you have the ability, can you post the current aerial oriented in the same direction as George's 1950 aerial (i.e. East is top of the picture)

Charlie Goerges

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I did it to reduce scrolling, but I like your idea better SPDB. I'll replace it ASAP.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Bill_McBride

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Charlie, no not all like the original or what they build after NGLA, in respect to the drive and the original length of the hole.

The hole was built at a very short 363-yards (middle of the tee). A new tee was built when (or aout the time) Doak and Co redid the course. The new tee was positioned out to the left and created a very nice angled tee shot, the "hotel" represented by rough and high grasses between the new tee and the fairway.

A much better overall hole.

The 363-yd tee was straight down the fairway line.

Most Road hole they built were generally one of the long par-4s, along with Double Plateaus and Alps holes.

Most often, in the context of Macdonald, Raynor and Banks Road hole versions, people think about the angled drive. They were not that concerned with that but concentrated on the green complex much more than the tee shot.

The green complex at PR is excellent.

They'd work the angle in where it fit the ground on environs but it was more about the greens.

This had to be the shortest Road hole they ever built.


Good point about the green complex being much more important than the angled tee shot.  The Road Hole #2 at Chicago Golf Club is dead straight, but that bunker really makes it play like a road hole!

The green at Chicago is a lot steeper back to front than the original at St Andrews, or other US road holes I've seen.  I saw Anthony Kim putt from the back of the green into the Road bunker at the Walker Cup!

Charlie Goerges

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Updated Aerials for 1950 and 2007.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

SPDB

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terrific stuff. thanks charlie.

TEPaul

Charlie Georges:

Thanks so much for posting those aerials of Piping that show the course's over-all outline or "look" from the air. That kind of thing with courses I've known (on the ground) most all my life is so interesting because they sort of depict Rohrshach images or whatever.

Piping looks to me like some kind of upside down animal caricature such as weird looking dog or something. I grew up there but not until recently have I ever seen an aerial of the course and I most certainly never thought about what the outline of the course looked like from the air.

Guys, in my opinion, the history behind that Road Hole at Piping is pretty interesting and I just don't think you understand or appreciate why it turned out as it did----eg so short and particularly that structure one had to hit a tee shot over to get to the right side of the fairway on that hole the way Macdonald designed it. I just can't impress on you enough that with a hole that short how strategically important it might have been to get way over on the right side of the fairway which is all gone now and was even gone on that 1950 aerial.

To me the question is----did they obsolete that rightside fairway when they removed that structure in that 1913 photo? When I started playing that course and hole (around 1950) that structure certainly was gone and so was that rightside fairway that seems pretty obvious in that 1913 photo. The tee shot wasn't much to think about when I started playing the course but I sure bet it was in 1913 the way that photo from that year shows the hole.

That 1913 photo is showing us the hole just after Macdonald was there and designed and built the course and it shows that a pretty interesting mimic of TOC's Road Hole tee shot strategy existed. I'm pretty sure it didn't happen with him back then by accident or coincidence!  ;)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 08:48:05 PM by TEPaul »

Charlie Goerges

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Tom, SPDB, You're welcome and it's my pleasure.

Additionally Tom, I have no doubt that I am unable to understand the evolution of the hole, at least not on my own. That's why I want to say that I really appreciate the knowledge and passion you've brought to this topic (my cotton gin comment notwithstanding ;)) and many other's on GCA. Thanks a million!

On a separate note, while it is true that golf courses are not designed to be viewed from high above, I've noticed that the great ones look as distinctive and beautiful from this perspective (and Piping Rock is no exception) as they probably do from the ground. I don't know why this is, but it's true of many of the greats while even well-regarded (but not great) courses of all eras pale in comparison.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Patrick_Mucci

What features would you restore ?

To start with I'd recreate the bunkering scheme on the short hole, # 17.





SPDB

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Charlie,
Any chance you have the ability to post the aerial i linked to on the first page (from 1966)? It might be an
interesting comparison to see the development of the course from 1950 to 1960 to current day.

Kalen Braley

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I can see that a few holes have been drastically altered, but on the whole, compared to many other ODG courses that have been absolutly butchered, this doesn't look too bad just based on the aerial.

Most of the bunkers still at least appear to remain in their strategic positions, even if they are less squared off and rounded.  Only that hole in the top right hand corner appears to be playing much differently than its original incarnation.

Robert_Ball

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Maybe not directly relevant to the discussion but here are some pictures that might provide context.

The abruptment feature SPDB mentions, running through the 7th fairway.  This photo is looking back at the tee.  The abruptment made a 90d left turn just left of this picture and ran directly in front of the 3rd green.  This defined the outside of the race track.  The outline of the 2nd turn of the track can be seen on the current day aerial.


1912 photo of the clubhouse showing spectator railing and some form of grandstands.  Taken from in front of the current first tee.



Robert

TEPaul

Robert:

Most all those spectators aren't exactly in front of the first tee. They are basically where the big practice putting green is below the wall that runs along the length of the back of the clubhouse and in front of the teeing area of the massive practice range which used to be two side by side polo fields (that were once in the middle of the race-track which looks to me to be about a mile in length). That structure that appears on that 1913 photo of the 8th and 9th holes might've been a small stands for a 1 1/4 mile race or it may've even been starting gates even though it looks a bit large and elaborate for that but then again the riding/polo/horse racing world of Long Island and New York back then was mighty powerful and elaborate.

Having grown up there the story had always been extant that Macdonald was not a fan of the horse interests at Piping when he designed and built a course there and they weren't a fan of his either if he tried to use their horse recreation real estate at that club, which as the story goes he wanted to do.

I think that's why his Road Hole was so short----eg they wouldn't let him but a tee in the end of what is now the range but which, back then, was once part of the second polo field.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 09:12:32 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

I'm also surprised to see that the 15th hole used to play straight-away. I never knew that and I don't remember that. That hole plays much better from tees out on the left. They are a bit of a hike from the 14th green but it makes the drive much better on #15. You really have to deal with those trees along the left corner.

Another interesting feature of the original design of Piping I don't remember but heard about for years was that apparently the right sides of the 2nd and 7nd greens were very close to each other or perhaps even actually attached.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 09:20:55 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

What can't be seen in the aerials is the detail to the 6th green, a wonderful green with a highly elevated back tier.

What I find almost universally interesting is how these great clubs, with these great golf courses, somehow didn't feel worthy enough to retain their pedigree, choosing instead to invite the guru's of the day in to "modernize" or "BRAND" their golf courses.

After all, who were Macdonald, Raynor, Banks, Tillinghast and Ross compared to "Brand" names of Nicklaus, Wilson, Jones and Dye ? ;D

SPDB

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Charlie Georges:

Guys, in my opinion, the history behind that Road Hole at Piping is pretty interesting and I just don't think you understand or appreciate why it turned out as it did----eg so short and particularly that structure one had to hit a tee shot over to get to the right side of the fairway on that hole the way Macdonald designed it. I just can't impress on you enough that with a hole that short how strategically important it might have been to get way over on the right side of the fairway which is all gone now and was even gone on that 1950 aerial.

To me the question is----did they obsolete that rightside fairway when they removed that structure in that 1913 photo? When I started playing that course and hole (around 1950) that structure certainly was gone and so was that rightside fairway that seems pretty obvious in that 1913 photo. The tee shot wasn't much to think about when I started playing the course but I sure bet it was in 1913 the way that photo from that year shows the hole.


TEPaul:
You say that us guys don't understand or appreciate why the 8th turned out the way it did, but I'm not sure you have a better understanding, notwithstanding the fact that you grew up there. The nature of what appears in Emmet's photo is totally unclear, but now you're claiming it figured into the design and development of the hole, which is total speculation. Certainly the nature of equine pursuits and its impact on the golf course is well documented, but as regards any theories about what appears in Emmet's photo - it is just speculation and to surmise Macdonald's design intent based on that photo is putting the cart before the horse (pun intended  ;D ).

I am interested however in figuring out more about the bank of the track and whether it used to be featured elsewhere than where it is still extant (the 7th hole). The old aerials seem to indicate that it may have once also been featured on the 8th hole and perhaps the 9th and 10th. I wonder if it was flattened by RT Jones or others (leaving it only on the 7th).  I also wonder what other aspects of the track were featured on the golf course and and on what holes (including perhaps your speculations about the grandstand/structure/gate).

Also, about the 2d/7th greens. I don't think they were ever a double green (I seem to recall Wayne Morrison posting an aerial photo of the greens). Now, as then, they are very intimately located and do share greenside bunkering.

Patrick:
I think you have played PRC recently, so you probably know that more work has been done on that green than any other in terms of recapturing greenspace.

TEPaul

"TEPaul:
You say that us guys don't understand or appreciate why the 8th turned out the way it did, but I'm not sure you have a better understanding, notwithstanding the fact that you grew up there. The nature of what appears in Emmet's photo is totally unclear, but now you're claiming it figured into the design and development of the hole, which is total speculation. Certainly the nature of equine pursuits and its impact on the golf course is well documented, but as regards any theories about what appears in Emmet's photo - it is just speculation and to surmise Macdonald's design intent based on that photo is putting the cart before the horse (pun intended   )."


SPDB:

Perhaps it seems like speculation to you but I don't really have much trouble understanding what I'm looking at in that photo, including where that structure is in relation to the tee shot as well as how fair right the fairway went in that photo. It sure doesn't take an architectural genius to understand what it meant strategically.

But if you want to call it speculation, be my guest and I see no reason at all to argue with you about it.



"I am interested however in figuring out more about the bank of the track and whether it used to be featured elsewhere than where it is still extant (the 7th hole). The old aerials seem to indicate that it may have once also been featured on the 8th hole and perhaps the 9th and 10th. I wonder if it was flattened by RT Jones or others (leaving it only on the 7th)."


The way it was on the holes you mentioned including the 7th back in the 1950s is the way it is now. There's a pretty prominent dropdown way off on the right along the beginning of the 10th hole, a prominent bank behind the Biarritz and only a very slight little decline across the 8th (probably less than six inches). The dropdown across the 7th hole is the same as it was in the 1950s. I doubt any of that has changed since the course was opened in 1913. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 03:52:58 PM by TEPaul »

Chuck Brown

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Here's a poor dumb midwesterner question:  Do they still play polo at Piping Rock?  It looks like it is now a very nice practice area...

TEPaul

No more polo at Piping Chuck. But they did play it there for quite a time and during the time the area was a practice range. When you think about it there would be no reason not to play on the practice range. All they had to do is put up the boards and the goals.

Don't short-change yourself about polo because you come from the Midwest.

I'll tell you a polo story about the Long Island polo world and the Mid-west which is pretty danged amazing.

Apparently the best American polo team ever assembled was the Meadowbrook team (Long Island) from the 1930s and just before the war. All of them were ten goalers. I'm not sure there ever was another 40 goal polo team that played together regularly. I know that two of them were Tommy Hitchcock who was considered to be the best polo player probably ever and another guy who was a good friend of my Dad by the name of Stewart Iglehart. Stewart was considered perhaps the finest rider polo had. Another member may've been Pete Bostwick but I'm not sure about that.

Anyway, one time I played golf with Stewart at Gulfstream in Delray and after the round I went over to his house which was right next to the clubhouse. He showed me a photo of that 40 goal Meadowbrook team. He said they referred to it as "high-speed" polo and he said that team essentially just never lost, they were virtually unbeatable.

But then he said when the war came all of them went out to some Army base I think in Kansas which had been an old traditional cavalry base. They all brought their polo ponies out there with them so they could practice on their time off. They didn't think they could find any games out there but someone told them some of the cowboys out there played polo with their quarterhorses.

So the Meadowbrook team got a game against the cowboys and Stewart told me the cowboys beat the shit out of them. I asked him how in the world that could happen to the reputed best team in the world and he just said they wondered that themselves since they'd never heard of those cowboys or their polo.

He said they were incredible riders and their polo ponies were better than anything they had (many of the horses in polo were quarterhorses).
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 05:07:41 PM by TEPaul »