Aerials of the Golf Courses of Long Island. Episode 2: Piping Rock Club

[Charlie Goerges]

My second installment of the series. Due to a few comments I decided to shrink the images down to 25% of their original size (unless otherwise stated), so if there is something you’d like to see in full size, let me know.

Again, these are labeled to the best of my ability, I’ve not played the course.

One other note, I found this course really appealed to the graphic designer in me. I’m not sure why exactly, other than the angular nature of the elements of the course.


Hole 1





Hole 2





Hole 3



Actual size image of hole 3. Note the guy(s) in the bunker and the hole location. Can you say screwed?





Hole 4





Hole 5





Hole 6





Hole 7





Hole 8





Hole 9





Hole 10





Hole 11





Hole 12





Hole 13





Hole 14





Hole 15





Hole 16





Hole 17





Hole 18

[Joe Hancock]

Charlie,

Did you enhance the color green in these aerials in any way? Wow.

Joe

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie,

Did you enhance the color green in these aerials in any way? Wow.

Joe

No, I didn't. It's possible the USGS or whomever took the originals did, but I doubt it. I guess the grass really is greener on the other side of the fence!

[TEPaul]

Charlie:

Thanks for those hole by holes. What is your intention with them? Would you like to compare them to the way the course was designed, to the way it was at some point in its evolution, or what?

I'm 64 now, and that's the golf course I grew up on. There's a ton of history here....and there

What would you like to do with those photographs you hung up on here? Would you like to just discuss those holes, hole by hole and how they are and how they play now....or what?

[Charlie Goerges]

Charlie:

Thanks for those hole by holes. What is your intention with them? Would you like to compare them to the way the course was designed, to the way it was at some point in its evolution, or what?

I'm 64 now, and that's the golf course I grew up on. There's a ton of history here....and there

What would you like to do with those photographs you hung up on here? Would you like to just discuss those holes, hole by hole and how they are and how they play now....or what?

Tom,

Here is my thought process: Me think course pretty. Me show pictures to others.
Seriously though, I have no plan with posting them, but I would be tickled if they helped spur discussion and/or historical dissemination. Given your knowledge of the course I would love to hear your thoughts on any of the above aspects that you mentioned and many more.

One thing though that I've never come across on GCA is a large-scale depiction of historical markers for a course. This is just coming to me now (so bear with me) but I'd like to see something like an arrow or a dot on a location of an image with a description of what neat thing happened there. It could be of major historical import or risible personal import, but neat stories are something that I've always enjoyed reading/hearing.


(By the way Tom, that isn't you in the bunker on 3 is it?    The images were taken in 2004 BTW.)

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Here is my thought process: Me think course pretty. Me show pictures to others."


Charlie:

Excellent thought there. I wholeheartedly endorse it. These boys on here are berry berry good at looking at pictures. It's when they start making architectural comments and suggestions about those pictures that things tend to get berry berry f...ed up. Pat Mucci is the poster boy on here for the latter. 

Seriously, though, the only hole I would mention for an historical comparison of the way it once was with the way it is now would be the 8th. It used to be considerably shorter and there apparently was a building (perhaps a small grandstand for the old racetrack) one could drive over ala the railroad sheds or hotel on TOC's Road Hole with the ideal angle into the green from considerably right of where the fairway is now. 

[George_Bahto]

if you look close you'll see lighter colored sand in bunkers that have recently (at that time) been worked on (in house) .........................  Principals Nose on hole #1, an example   -   as well as on #4 and 8 etc

[Charlie Goerges]

Well I do have a tree-clearing master plan I will be submitting to the club!




(just kidding around with you Mr. Mucci)

[Charlie Goerges]

George,

I really noticed that on number 1. I suppose it's not a noticable from the ground.


Tom,

It's neat that the road hole was so authentic. Was that the original intent i.e. making it as like to the road hole as humanly possible?

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
It's neat that the road hole was so authentic. Was that the original intent i.e. making it as like to the road hole as humanly possible?"


Charlie:

I have no idea. I grew up there and I surely never knew there was a mini-grandstand right in that area that it seemed one could hit a ball over to get to the right side of that fairway (now obsoleted).

But an old photo in a magazine article (written by Devereaux Emmet) from 1913 turned up last year that showed the whole thing clear as could be, and so there can't be any question that Macdonald sure saw it and apparently used it to mimic that feature and strategy of TOC.

[George_Bahto]

Charlie, no not all like the original or what they build after NGLA, in respect to the drive and the original length of the hole.

The hole was built at a very short 363-yards (middle of the tee). A new tee was built when (or aout the time) Doak and Co redid the course. The new tee was positioned out to the left and created a very nice angled tee shot, the "hotel" represented by rough and high grasses between the new tee and the fairway.

A much better overall hole.

The 363-yd tee was straight down the fairway line.

Most Road hole they built were generally one of the long par-4s, along with Double Plateaus and Alps holes.

Most often, in the context of Macdonald, Raynor and Banks Road hole versions, people think about the angled drive. They were not that concerned with that but concentrated on the green complex much more than the tee shot.

The green complex at PR is excellent.

They'd work the angle in where it fit the ground on environs but it was more about the greens.

This had to be the shortest Road hole they ever built.

[Charlie Goerges]

"Charlie, no not all like the original or what they build after NGLA, in respect to the drive and the original length of the hole."

Huh, I guess this goes to show how little the untrained mind (me) can glean from an aerial photo. I would have said it looked very authentic based on the aerial. The tee to which you refer, George, is that the one that is partially cut-off in the lower left portion of the image?

[George_Bahto]

the original 363-tee was just a couple strides off to the left of the 7th green

you can go to goolge earth, measuring tool adn measure back 363 from the green  and you'll see

here is a 1950 aerial of the two holes

[TEPaul]

George:

Apparently you haven't looked very carefully at that photo in the 1913 Dev Emmet article on Piping Rock. I know where the original tee on #8 was and the original length of that hole since I grew up at that course.

What I did not know was there was a mini-grandstand (I guess that's what it was) right in that corner of the polo field and that the fairway on #8 extended way over to the right and seemed to almost touch some of the Biarritz bunkering.

That building was there when the course was first in play in 1913 and so obviously it was there before and during the time Macdonald designed that course. Last time I saw that photo I recall you could practically lay a ruler on it and tell one could hit the ball over that building and way out to the right where fairway once was.

Obviously from that position an approach is right up into the length of that green! 

[Charlie Goerges]

Actually Tom, I was hoping for something more like the following:

'Here is the spot where Mathilda Buntington taught me to play doctor. Thank God that bunker is totally enclosed with trees, the designer's intent be damned!'

[Charlie Goerges]

Or maybe this:

My best par ever!

[TEPaul]

CharlieG:

You know, I believe the first formal round of golf I ever played was at Piping Rock. One of the kids I was playing golf with was Muffy Something or Other who had a damn sexy little bod for an 11 year old.

We were all pretty nervous on the first tee and I'll never forget she asked the old Scottish pro, Spence, who was our teacher, if it was OK to tee up the ball. He said of course it was. So off we all went down the fairway and when she got to her ball she picks it up, takes a tee out of her pocket and tees it up in the fairway.

I said; "Uh, hey, Muff, I don't think we're supposed to do shit like that!"

She actually got pretty pissed at me which frankly made her even sexier. If I could figure out how to use one of those red dots you just used I might even be able to mark the exact spot on the first fairway where the Muffmeister teed up her ball that time.

How would you like that? That might be quite the historic architectural coup, don't you think?

[Anthony Gray]

CharlieG:

You know, I believe the first formal round of golf I ever played was at Piping Rock. One of the kids I was playing golf with was Muffy Something or Other who had a damn sexy little bod for an 11 year old.

We were all pretty nervous on the first tee and I'll never forget she asked the old Scottish pro, Spence, who was our teacher, if it was OK to tee up the ball. He said of course it was. So off we all went down the fairway and when she got to her ball she picks it up, takes a tee out of her pocket and tees it up in the fairway.

I said; "Uh, hey, Muff, I don't think we're supposed to do shit like that!"

She actually got pretty pissed at me which frankly made her even sexier. If I could figure out how to use one of those red dots you just used I might even be able to mark the exact spot on the first fairway where the Muffmeister teed up her ball that time.

How would you like that? That might be quite the historic architectural coup, don't you think?

  Red Dot? That fairway needs a plaque signifying this historic event.

  Anthony

[SPDB]

"Tom,
Here is my thought process: Me think course pretty. Me show pictures to others."


Charlie:

Excellent thought there. I wholeheartedly endorse it. These boys on here are berry berry good at looking at pictures. It's when they start making architectural comments and suggestions about those pictures that things tend to get berry berry f...ed up. Pat Mucci is the poster boy on here for the latter. 

Seriously, though, the only hole I would mention for an historical comparison of the way it once was with the way it is now would be the 8th. It used to be considerably shorter and there apparently was a building (perhaps a small grandstand for the old racetrack) one could drive over ala the railroad sheds or hotel on TOC's Road Hole with the ideal angle into the green from considerably right of where the fairway is now. 

Berry?  

TEPaul:
You've written about this grandstand before. Is there any other contemporaneous photographic or written evidence of this grandstand (which alternates between a grandstand and a building)? Something definitely appears in the Emmet photo but its far from conclusive what appears in that photo (and whether its permanent).

Also, given the orientation of the polo field at PRC, it would seem an odd place for a grandstand, don't you think?

[Charlie Goerges]

CharlieG:

You know, I believe the first formal round of golf I ever played was at Piping Rock. One of the kids I was playing golf with was Muffy Something or Other who had a damn sexy little bod for an 11 year old.

We were all pretty nervous on the first tee and I'll never forget she asked the old Scottish pro, Spence, who was our teacher, if it was OK to tee up the ball. He said of course it was. So off we all went down the fairway and when she got to her ball she picks it up, takes a tee out of her pocket and tees it up in the fairway.

I said; "Uh, hey, Muff, I don't think we're supposed to do shit like that!"

She actually got pretty pissed at me which frankly made her even sexier. If I could figure out how to use one of those red dots you just used I might even be able to mark the exact spot on the first fairway where the Muffmeister teed up her ball that time.

How would you like that? That might be quite the historic architectural coup, don't you think?

  Red Dot? That fairway needs a plaque signifying this historic event.

  Anthony

Especially since he started playing when he was 7! 



In real, actual seriousness though, something like it (if slightly less racy  ) would be interesting. The way to make it available to everyone would be to create a photobucket account for GCA members. Then anyone could open the image right online, make a few changes and click save without ever having to create an account or download/upload images. I think that tonight I'll look into that.

Charlie

P.S. Tom, you never answered my question about whether that was you in the bunker on 3. Put another way: Are you now or have you ever been in the front bunker on number 3!

[TEPaul]

"Also, given the orientation of the polo field at PRC, it would seem an odd place for a grandstand, don't you think?"


Where the enormous practice range is now was once two side by side polo fields. If polo was being played on the one closest to the clubhouse most people would watch from about where one hits balls now.

That mini-grandstand or whatever it was apparently served as a place for people to watch races on the racetrack that apparently encircled where the range is now before a golf course was built at Piping Rock.

[TEPaul]

"P.S. Tom, you never answered my question about whether that was you in the bunker on 3. Put another way: Are you now or have you ever been in the front bunker on number 3!"


Charlie:

Funny you should ask that. That particular bunker on #3 is without question one of the very most salient memories I have of golf when I was a kid. As a kid, if you got in that thing and actually tried to get it up on the green you might spend a week at it. You just cannot believe how high the face of that bunker was. The only one I'm aware of that might be as high (even though I doubt it) is the right greenside bunker at Maidstone's 9th.

[SPDB]

That mini-grandstand or whatever it was apparently served as a place for people to watch races on the racetrack that apparently encircled where the range is now before a golf course was built at Piping Rock.

Tom:
How do you know that? I just mean, is there any thing contemporaneous with Emmet's photo, which isn't dispositive of anything, that explains what that "structure" might have been?

[TEPaul]

"Tom:
How do you know that? I just mean, is there any thing contemporaneous with Emmet's photo, which isn't dispositive of anything, that explains what that "structure" might have been?"


SPDB:

First of all, have you seen that photo from that 1913 Devereaux Emmet article? Secondly, how much do you know about Piping Rock before a golf course was built there in 1913? Thirdly, what do you suppose a building would be doing in that particular place in 1913?

I also said "apparently" when I mentioned it might have been a mini-grandstand or looked like one to me. It's really not that important what it was. The primary point is it's completely obvious in that 1913 photo a building was right there in that area for some purpose.

And lastly, what is the use of the word "dispostive" for?? The last guy who used that word on here was Moriarty in those endless Merion threads when he continued to argue incessantly no matter how much material to the contrary was put before him to refute his uninformed and thoroughly incomplete assumptions, premises and conclusions.

"Dispostive?" What is that---some attempt to play the courtroom lawyer on here? That other guy tried to turn this DG into one that required something like courtroom procedure such as Discovery or whatever (eg he claimed I couldn't even mention private club documents and what they said in refuting him without him DEMANDING I first turn them over to him for his review! What a joke and dumb legalistic ploy that one was). If that's what you're trying to do I'm not interested in being some courtroom type witness on this DG. This isn't a court of law or a courtroom, it's a DISCUSSION Group which is based on OPINION! 

I don't really know what the purpose of that building out in the corner of that area was for back then probably before the golf course was built but I'm pretty sure there was a race track around that area back then. That certainly shouldn't be all that hard to find out from Piping's history but the point is that old photo did show a building in that area.

[SPDB]

"Tom:
How do you know that? I just mean, is there any thing contemporaneous with Emmet's photo, which isn't dispositive of anything, that explains what that "structure" might have been?"


SPDB:

First of all, have you seen that photo from that 1913 Devereaux Emmet article?

Tom - I have seen the photo, i have attached it below.

Secondly, how much do you know about Piping Rock before a golf course was built there in 1913?

Not much. I know polo was the primary pursuit, perhaps even horse racing on a track.

Thirdly, what do you suppose a building would be doing in that particular place in 1913?

See, this presupposes there was a "builiding" in that particular place, which is the whole subject of my initial questions.

I also said "apparently" when I mentioned it might have been a mini-grandstand or looked like one to me. It's really not that important what it was. The primary point is it's completely obvious in that 1913 photo a building was right there in that area for some purpose.

As I've said before, I'm not so sure you can conclude from Emmet that what appears in Emmet's photo is a building, grandstand or something else entirely. I'm curious what it is too, but its far from obvious.

And lastly, what is the use of the word "dispostive" for?? The last guy who used that word on here was Moriarty in those endless Merion threads when he continued to argue incessantly no matter how much material to the contrary was put before him to refute his uninformed and thoroughly incomplete assumptions, premises and conclusions.

The use of the word "dispositive" was merely shorthand for saying Emmet's photo doesn't illustrate that there was a building or grandstand there. I don't see it as "apparent". And please lets leave Merion and Moriarty out of this. That was a dark period and there's no reason to bring it up or draw comparisons by my use of one word in order to try to discredit.

"Dispostive?" What is that---some attempt to play the courtroom lawyer on here? That other guy tried to turn this DG into one that required something like courtroom procedure such as Discovery or whatever (eg he claimed I couldn't even mention private club documents and what they said in refuting him without him DEMANDING I first turn them over to him for his review! What a joke and dumb legalistic ploy that one was). If that's what you're trying to do I'm not interested in being some courtroom type witness on this DG. This isn't a court of law or a courtroom, it's a DISCUSSION Group which is based on OPINION! 

See above.


I don't really know what the purpose of that building out in the corner of that area was for back then probably before the golf course was built but I'm pretty sure there was a race track around that area back then. That certainly shouldn't be all that hard to find out from Piping's history but the point is that old photo did show a building in that area.
[/quote]


Now what I think would be a more intriguing question is what happened to that abruptment that use to run from the 6th hole across the 8th, behind the 9th green and down the right hand side of 10.  The abruptment still bisects the 7th hole and it is a really cool little feature. 

I wonder if that was ever part of a racetrack, maybe a bank on the outside of one. Do you know?