Accounting for the # of quality L.I. courses?

[brad_miller]

Tom, it's challenged, and only a small number of CT courses would even be considered in the top of NY State, or the GAP body down south.

[Gib_Papazian]

Correct me if I am wrong, but when I was rewriting the Yale chapter, it seemed that every historical quote mentioned the horrendous amount of rock in the land. It sounds like it was a nearly impossible job to get everything cleared and I know the golf course cost an enormous amount of money to build.

Fishers aside - because I have only driven through Connecticut once - is the soil content as difficult there as in the hills of New Haven?

That might explain the lack a great stuff in the state. Don't laugh, because George was driving, I cannot remember if Whipperwoll was in Connecticut or New York.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Gib,

Whippoorwill is in NY.  Armonk, NY (home of IBM's HQ).  If you're driving up I-684 N from White Plains, you go through the extreme SW corner of CT, then back into NY.

[TEPaul]

I wouldn't think the prevalence of stone could have much to do with a dearth of great courses in Connecticut as all of New England has plenty of stone in its landscape.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul, Gib, et.al.,

The coastal areas are not rocky

[Gib_Papazian]

Scott,
Thanks, I forgot to ask Uncle George when we spoke this morning. . . . . of course I could have looked it up if I wasn't lazy.

This is going to sound awfully like a lifelong Californian, but as many times as I have been to the MGA area, it still confuses me.

Holland Tunnel to Jersey, Midtown Tunnel to Long Island . . . . okay, I have that straight in my mind. Uptown to Harlem and the Bronx crossover, Downtown to Soho, Grammercy and onto Brooklyn and Statan Island.

Once I get out towards Connecticut or Westchester I might as well be in a foreign country.

What seems strange is that Connecticut has so few gems and Westchester has more world class golf courses than gas stations. I still don't get it. they are not that far apart and don't seem to have such different topography.  

[Bruceski]

Fascinating discussion. It's hard to explain Long Island's and Westchester's wealth of great courses, and the relative dearth of the same in Connecticut.

Two possibilities:
1. The construction of one great course (such as Winged Foot and Shinnecock) begets many more surrounding it.

2. Random bad luck for Connecticut, having nothing to do with any logical cause. Hell, isn't it sort of random that one of the best courses in the world was placed in an out of the way place like Clementon, New Jersey?  And don't say it's close to Philadelphia! It's not THAT close.

Having traveled to and learned about every Northeastern and Mid-Atlantic state, it always struck me that Connecticut is the least impressive in nearly every aspect (culture, geography, and history). It doesn't help that I'm a chauvinistic New Yorker living in Manhattan! There's just not that much inspiring about the great cities of New Haven and Hartford.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Bruceski,

New Haven shcoked me - even for a Trojan from a university between the barrio and ghetto.

We got lost and after several tries stopped to ask directions right next to Yale. A guy came out with a fresh tattoo, dripping with blood I might add, and gave us directions. Nobody else knew where this mythical golf course was located. What a rough town in such pretty surroundings.

[TEPaul]

Bruceski:

Don't you dare tell me Pine Valley isn't close to Philadelphia! It's no more than about 15-20 minutes!! Isn't that close enough for you? Where do you want it to be to be closer than that--right under Penn's Hat on Market St??

And furthermore, Bruceski, Pine Valley was built by a group of Philadelphians in 1913! What do you think they were looking to do, build something wholly inconvenient to get to for themselves?

[Bruceski]

15-20 minutes by car, but 45 minutes by horse and buggy.  
Damn Philadelphians!

[George Bahto]

Tom - we know you Philly-Crumpians would love to claim PV as your own but it's NJ, fella, NJ

you've got the Flay-ahs, what else could you "axe" for

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

You can call the lower half of that place you live in New Jersey if you want to but anyone in golf knows it's belonged to the Golf Association of Philadelphia for well over 100 years!

The only thing better on the eastern side of the river in GAP's territory compared to the western side of the river is on the eastern side they pump your gas for you for some reason!

If I were to speculate as to why that is I would say they're just trying to be extra nice hoping that us who live on the western side of the river might ask them to come and play Merion or something!

[Dave_Miller]

Tough for New Haven and Hartford to compete with NY to South and Boston to North.  Lots of great courses in those areas.  There are a few hidden gems in Ct. but not to the extent Long Island et al can claim.  Clementon is pretty darn close to Phila.
Fairways and Greens

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I'm away this week on a major golf trip but I just had to chime in.

PV is in Jersey -- that's New Jersey -- not Phillie or as many from cheesesteak land are wont to say. It amuses me that PV is just outside Phillie.

It's time people started to look at a travel map.

With that approach and logic I will say that Merion is just outside of Jersey and you know, as well as I, that would be just as foolish a statement as the initial one.

Just trying to keep the record (and geography straight).

[TEPaul]

Matt:

You can call it what you want but it just ain't so and hasn't been since the beginning! It's an association thing and NJ State's association doesn't tote the freight GAP does.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tom P.,

What are your thoughts on a certain "forgotten" Flynn course on the "east side of Phillie", of which a few here are intimately familiar?  The one that's even closer to Phillie than PV?

[SPDB]

Scott - which one are you referring to - ACCC, or Shinnecock  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

If you're refering to the one in Cherry Hill, Woodbury ?,
I think it's great except for the five or so lost and replaced holes.  I believe there is an original diagram of the course hanging in the clubhouse.  The replacing holes are barely adequate.

P.S.  You can tell TEPaul, it's another Jersey course !  

[Scott_Burroughs]

Close, Pat.  Woodcrest.  Woodbury's a private nine-holer about 12 miles away.

Woodcrest could use a chainsaw and some wider fairways, but it has nice rolling topography in otherwise mostly flat (except for PVGC) southern NJ, and is rather challenging for it's (lack of) length.  I believe 140 slope from <6500 yard tips.  Good set of par 3's.

Ask JamieS or Fred R. their opinions on Woodcrest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I really liked it.

Why did they sell off five or so of their holes ??

[Scott_Burroughs]

I don't remember that detail.  I played it once last fall with Fred R., a member who occasionally posts here.  I think he told me the story of that.  I believe JamieS was an assistant pro there before he regained his amateur status.

[Mike_Cirba]

Without digging through my history books, I do know that Woodcrest was a public course at one time, and has gone through some changes in ownership.  That probably explains the loss of acreage.

[TEPaul]

Woodcrest is an interesting course, a Flynn which as stated lost a few of its holes across the street. This is a course one would say has had a number of "iterations" and those iterations are still a work in progress. In the spectrum of Philly Flynn courses it's one you don't hear about that much!

I'm not really sure about the design evolution of each hole at Woodcrest but if you ask me you can certainly see vestiges of Flynn's routing style that sort of roll around on the landscape in interesting ways. I don't know it for a fact but #15 looks like one of those unusual Flynn gutsy routed holes!

It was said Lee Trevino analyzed golf courses to determine if they were "clock-wise" or "counter clockwise" and if they would suit his game because of that. Lee was looking for the "clock-wise" variety as he felt it suited his fading game and shot pattern. It's said he felt ANGC was too "counter clock-wise" for his game and consequently stayed away from the Masters during many of the years of his main tour career.

Woodcrest is one Trevino would have stayed away from. It's "counter clock-wise" in spades and basically a hooker's delight! If you can't hit it right to left off the tee, you'll probably struggle at Woodcreast!

Mike Cirba:

You should bring your best power fade!!

[Scott_Burroughs]

I guess I never realized the number of dogleg left holes (probably because I draw the ball from the right side ), but no less than 7 holes go right to left (#5,6,7,9,10,14,17), but few holes go the other way (#13, and #2 slightly).

I would guess that the finishing holes from 15-18 are different from the original somehow and perhaps #6 was not an original, as the dogleg is awkward, though the green is excellent.  I suppose the par 3 12th might not be an original.

Tom,

I guess the GAP really is far-reaching, as even this L.I. thread has been taken over by talk of a GAP course!  

[TEPaul]

Scott:

I wouldn't really say GAP's reach is far reaching! Its reach is well defined at 150 miles from Penn's Hat. However, if I calculate that mileage straight as the crow can fly you'd be amazed what's within GAP's reach on Long Island!