COURSE PAIRINGS

[Greg Tallman]

Greg makes a hell of a point.. it is FAR FAR FAR from safe to assume that any two courses at Casa di Campo are superior to two from Los Cabos... in fact Cabo del Sol Ocean + any of 4-5 others seem to me as solid as damn near any on the current approved 18 pairs.... make it this new Diamante course - if it turns out as great as the pictures say - and you are talking Cypress-Pebble solid.....

Thanks for the support Huck. Pretty easy to make such assumptions from 8,000 miles away I suppose.

Don't get me wrong I like Teeth of the Dog just fine, it's a great golf course but when you lay them out side by side and compare the courses... I think CDS wins hands down.

Diamante may not be Cypress but it is going to be a blast and if you like playing in the wind...

[Carl Nichols]

I haven't been to Cabo, but if there are (or will be) two courses that are "Cypress-Pebble solid," (1) I will bump this trip up on my to-do list, and (2) someone should tell the magazines that they're ranking the Cabo courses too low.

[Greg Tallman]

I haven't been to Cabo, but if there are (or will be) two courses that are "Cypress-Pebble solid," (1) I will bump this trip up on my to-do list, and (2) someone should tell the magazines that they're ranking the Cabo courses too low.

That case could certainly be made though I get the feeling that is not the true message of your post.

Shoot, Huck must be a hige fan of ours... not even a quip about the rates?? 

[Joe Bausch]

caledonia (strantz) and dunes club (one of the few good dark ages courses)

Funny you mention that combo Jay.  Just recently I did a Barefoot Love/Dunes Club morning/afternoon combo and liked it very much.

[Tom Huckaby]

Greg - well.... the rates are what they are.  In the end if we base ANY of this on rates, the list would fall apart.

I am a very very big Cabo del Sol fan.  Hell I'd take BOTH courses there as a fine submission here.  That Diamante course just does look rather delicious in the photos.

 

And sure "Cypress + Pebble solid" is an exaggeration.... but seems to me it's not THAT much of such.

TH

[Jay Kirkpatrick]

Tim,

Great call on Greenbrier/Homestead... mountain golf doesn't get much better than those two.

Oh but it does...

Grandfather & Linville Golf Club

those are definitely a close second, but maples/ross doesn't beat flynn/macdonald in my book (and my club has a maples and ross).  old white is one of my all-time favorites.

[Greg Tallman]

Tim,

Great call on Greenbrier/Homestead... mountain golf doesn't get much better than those two.

Oh but it does...

Grandfather & Linville Golf Club

those are definitely a close second, but maples/ross doesn't beat flynn/macdonald in my book (and my club has a maples and ross).  old white is one of my all-time favorites.

Love these conversations... as a native West Virginian I would love to place the Greenbrier/Homestead course atop the list but honestly do not believe they compare favoably to the Linville duo.

Old White is solid but has some clunkers... 4 & 17 come immediately to mind.

I don't sunscribe to this & that architect trumps he & she... the courses speak for themselves. Heck even our beloved Mr. Doak may have a merely average course out there somewhere. 

That said I have always though Maples was overlooked due to the regional nature of his work. Grandfather tops the list in my book but heck I think very highly of the original course at Woodlake in Vass as well.

I put the back nine at Grandfather among my favorite 2 or 3 nines anywhere.

[Sean_A]

"Sean, Are you in some way suggesting that Teeth is so far superior to Cabo del Sol Ocean that this was some sort of revelation?

Have you had the opportunity to play both courses? If so your reactiojn is rather surprising as Teeth has some rather weak holes and the ocean holes on each would likely lean toward Cabo del Sol as the better golf."


Greg

I am in no way making that suggestion.  I don't know how good or great these courses are, but for better or worse, I don't fancy a trip to find out given the limitations of the exercise.  I was asked (as were several other people) to come up with a list of 18 pairs of courses which were within an hour's drive of each other and of which at least one readily accessible to all.  They were to be courses that I have a lot of time for, ones that I would make a lot of time for and think others would enjoy as a pairs enough to want to go out of their way.  I tried to get a balance of those criteria even though some of my absolute favouite courses in the world got the chop - afterall 36 courses ain't a lot.  Its a strange mix of criteria that once I gave it some thought realized was not so easy a task.  Huck keeps going on about greatness, but that is only one piece of the puzzle because its arguable that all the courses mentioned are great.   So to a large degree its the other things which tip the balance.  I also tried not to have any sacred cows, but that is easier said than done!

I welcome more suggestions, but I would like to know which pairs would be replaced to make space for the new offerings.

Woking and Addington (solid pair, I could play either of these 100 more times)
Dornoch and Brora (solid pair - see above)
Enniscrone and Carne (not quite as solid as above, but solid)
North Berwick and Dunbar (Dunbar is the obvious weaker link here, but Muirfield would seriously wear on me and I have to have NB in the shakeup)
CPC and Pebble (can't go without CPC because I haven't seen it and Pebble is the obvious mate)
Prestwick and Western Gailes (solid pair - I haven't seen WG yet)
Sandwich and Princes (Princes is a bit of a weak link, but I can't take too much of the beat back at Deal)
Pacific Dunes and Old Mac (I will take a punt on unfinished course because it looks compelling)
Sand Hills and Wildhorse (Gotta have Sand Hills and folks say WH is wonderful)
MPCC Dunes and Pasa (not seen either)
Morfontaine and St Germain (not seen either - its a bit of a punt if you can call a trip to France this!)
Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath (An Oz trip would be a dream come true)
Shinny and Bethpage (Not too fussed about BB, but Shinny certainly gets the blood pumping)
Portrush Dunluce and Valley (I am hoping the Valley is one of the courses that rings my bells)
Pennard and Southerndown (I love Pennard, but S'down is abit of a weak link - could be replaced)
Pulborough and Royal Ashdown Forest (I just don't know about RA, but WS is lovely - could be replaced)
Crystal Downs and Arcadia (not bothered about Arcadia, but with Highpointe down what else is there?-could be replaced)
TOC and Elie (not seen Elie in a long time - solid pair)



Ciao 

[Tom Huckaby]

Huck keeps going on about greatness, but that is only one piece of the puzzle because its arguable that all the courses mentioned are great.   So to a large degree its the other things which tip the balance.

Sean, you are confusing as all hell about this.  So what ARE all of the pieces of the puzzle going into this?  What ARE you looking for?  You make zero sense in any of this... are you recommending to a friend?  Or is it just what YOU like?  Are certain places of the world preferred?  Are there places you refuse to go?  Does cost matter?

The choices you have given shed no light on any of this as they are wholly inconsistent....

Again I am not trying to argue; rather I am trying to make suggestions or contributions (because it is fun) but your inconsistencies make it rather impossible.

SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE... clarify what it is you are looking for here.  You have the UK and pretty much the entirety of the US covered, but you seem to refuse to want to consider Mexico, but however would have considered Dominican Republic.  You say cost matters, yet you have some of the most expensive places on earth included (and I don't mean just Pebble Beach).  You say you want to be able to just get on a course no problem, yet even in the 2nc course you have a few where that ain't so easy.  Your first course choices also include a fantasy world of access availability.  You say OK for Portush Valley and Dunluce, but no for MPCC Dunes and Shore (which are arguably EACH better by any measure you want to choose than Portrush Dunluce, and are each FOR SURE better than Portrush Valley).  You refuse to consider Spyglass Hill - reasons not given other than you just seem to not like it from afar - whereas others would argue strenuously it is a superior golf course to MANY on your list.

It all makes zero sense, Sean.  Or is this your intent?

TH

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean,

You clearly need to spend some time on the Kent coast get your b*tt down here as soon as possible. We need to work through your love of Princes against Deal.......is it the mole hills on the tees or are you at home in a travelodge? see www.thelondongolfer.co.uk

I'm 10 from 12 on GCA'ers joining Deal, you need to be Chappered as Tony would say!

Chappers

[Sean_A]

Huck keeps going on about greatness, but that is only one piece of the puzzle because its arguable that all the courses mentioned are great.   So to a large degree its the other things which tip the balance.

Sean, you are confusing as all hell about this.  So what ARE all of the pieces of the puzzle going into this?  What ARE you looking for?  You make zero sense in any of this... are you recommending to a friend?  Or is it just what YOU like?  Are certain places of the world preferred?  Are there places you refuse to go?  Does cost matter?

The choices you have given shed no light on any of this as they are wholly inconsistent....

Again I am not trying to argue; rather I am trying to make suggestions or contributions (because it is fun) but your inconsistencies make it rather impossible.

SO PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE... clarify what it is you are looking for here.  You have the UK and pretty much the entirety of the US covered, but you seem to refuse to want to consider Mexico, but however would have considered Dominican Republic.  You say cost matters, yet you have some of the most expensive places on earth included (and I don't mean just Pebble Beach).  You say you want to be able to just get on a course no problem, yet even in the 2nc course you have a few where that ain't so easy.  Your first course choices also include a fantasy world of access availability.  You say OK for Portush Valley and Dunluce, but no for MPCC Dunes and Shore (which are arguably EACH better by any measure you want to choose than Portrush Dunluce, and are each FOR SURE better than Portrush Valley).  You refuse to consider Spyglass Hill - reasons not given other than you just seem to not like it from afar - whereas others would argue strenuously it is a superior golf course to MANY on your list.

It all makes zero sense, Sean.  Or is this your intent?

TH

AwsHuckster

"I was asked (as were several other people) to come up with a list of 18 pairs of courses which were within an hour's drive of each other and of which at least one readily accessible to all.  They were to be courses that I have a lot of time for, ones that I would make a lot of time for and think others would enjoy as a pairs enough to want to go out of their way."

If this quote isn't enough info then I spose you will remain clueless.  Are you expecting some sort of map?  Given the limitations much cannot be included.  I dare say anyone one of us would have quibbles about the choices of others.  You continue to mention standards, but I would disagree unless your measuring stick is a top 100 list in which case why bother asking anybody their opinion if any or all of these lists are definitive guides to architectural good and evil .  I believe every course I selected is of high quality and interest, but necessarily some are of more high quality and interest than others.  The important thing is that its all debatable which is why I question your concerns about standards.  

For the hell of it, throw your 18 pairs my way.  You can do it privately if you wish.  


Chappers

To be honest, I wouldn't mind being Chappered.  I think Deal is a wonderful club.  However, as you know, Kent is on the wrong side of London from where I stand.  Even so, I would like to get down to Deal in the near future.  I have yet to see the course where much of the back 9 wasn't a slog.  Either I have been terribly unlucky or the much of the back 9 is always a slog!

Ciao

[Jamie Barber]

Sean,

You clearly need to spend some time on the Kent coast get your b*tt down here as soon as possible. We need to work through your love of Princes against Deal.......is it the mole hills on the tees or are you at home in a travelodge? see www.thelondongolfer.co.uk

I'm 10 from 12 on GCA'ers joining Deal, you need to be Chappered as Tony would say!

Chappers

That's low!  And I thought the blog on that site was drivel. Sure the pictures were funny but they are not reflective of the overall course condition

[Tom Huckaby]

Sean:

I get what you first posted.  Your choices just remain wholly inconsistent with answering that question.  And I sure as hell don't base any of this on any "top 100" standard... nor do I have any idea what your standards are... and that is rather the point.... I remain just trying my best to answer what you are asking for.

And it continues to make zero sense.  I sure as hell don't have 18 pairs in mind - I just want to help contribute to yours, as asked.

So no, the quote isn't enough; not when coupled with your answers.  I can't see how ANYONE could make valid suggestions.

So I guess it comes down to this:  we throw out suggestions, you decide if it meets your impossible to understand standards, right?   I guess that's OK.   I've given you mine.  I think your list can be improved on for sure, but hey, it does remain your list.

Curious how you are going to access all these US private clubs... and why you are hep to go to Dominican Repubic but refuse to consider Mexico... and why both Portrush courses are included but you refuse the same consideration for MPCC... and why cost matters some places but not at all at others... but oh well, this is all meant to be fantasy, and it's your list, right?

[jeffwarne]

Tom,
anybody can call Portrush and get on both courses.
I seriously doubt that's true of MPCC so it fails the criteria that one course must be accessible by the average Joe.

but,  I'd include MPCC on a top 3 day in golf anytime

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,
anybody can call Portrush and get on both courses.
I seriously doubt that's true of MPCC so it fails the criteria that one course must be accessible by the average Joe.

but,  I'd include MPCC on a top 3 day in golf anytime

Jeff:  understood. Just note that I had suggested he pair one MPCC course with Pasatiempo and the other with Spyglass, thus meeting the average Joe standard. Sean rejected it, saying he didn't want both MPCC courses... and/or that Spyglass wasn't worthy.

So I guess it turns on Spyglass... but remains confusing to me given others he HAS included as second courses... several of which are very lacking by any measure when compared to Spyglass....

Thus my confusion.

But never mind... it is Sean's list and he makes the rules... as arbitrary and non-sensical as they seem to be!

 

[Greg Tallman]

"Sean, Are you in some way suggesting that Teeth is so far superior to Cabo del Sol Ocean that this was some sort of revelation?

Have you had the opportunity to play both courses? If so your reactiojn is rather surprising as Teeth has some rather weak holes and the ocean holes on each would likely lean toward Cabo del Sol as the better golf."


Greg

I am in no way making that suggestion.  I don't know how good or great these courses are, but for better or worse, I don't fancy a trip to find out given the limitations of the exercise.  I was asked (as were several other people) to come up with a list of 18 pairs of courses which were within an hour's drive of each other and of which at least one readily accessible to all.  They were to be courses that I have a lot of time for, ones that I would make a lot of time for and think others would enjoy as a pairs enough to want to go out of their way.  I tried to get a balance of those criteria even though some of my absolute favouite courses in the world got the chop - afterall 36 courses ain't a lot.  Its a strange mix of criteria that once I gave it some thought realized was not so easy a task.  Huck keeps going on about greatness, but that is only one piece of the puzzle because its arguable that all the courses mentioned are great.   So to a large degree its the other things which tip the balance.  I also tried not to have any sacred cows, but that is easier said than done!

Ciao 

What other things exist to tip the balance?

[Joe Bausch]

These are within 10 minutes of each other near Reading, PA, and Kyle Harris and I walked both yesterday for a grand total of 36 bucks:

1.  Galen Hall (a Findlay/Tillinghast and some Gordon concoction that is neat; photo album to come soon)
2.  Manor (an extremely quirky in places Findlay layout with perhaps the most interesting Findlay greens I've played yet)