Would the 17th at CPC be a vastly better hole if

[Patrick_Mucci]

the trees were removed ?

Would it be a true Cape hole for the modern day bombers ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It would be a different hole. One can bomb it in there now but the risk reward if stronger than the hole u describe Pat. I love the hole as it is. I at times wish one of the far trres or two were gone to give a slightly bigger landing area for we low ball hitters.

[Mark_Fine]

It would be a better hole if it were left alone   

Tiger,
Maybe I misunderstood your post but there are few places to "bomb" a tee shot.  It has to be placed accurately or those trees come into play big time.
Mark

[Bill_McBride]

Last time I played there I was amazed that a couple of my opponents (including the worthy Tiger) hit their tee shots right of the trees.  That really never occurred to me, but what do I know?

[Kyle Henderson]

I liked the original version of the 17th hole better (judging only from photos then and now, not personal experience as I'm a mere mortal) when that little grove of Cypress trees made for a compelling  and well-placed obstacle before the coastline receded, the trees expanded and equipment advanced.

If these trees were removed, it might be neat to replace them with  a patch of uneven and slightly shaggy turf in a similar position, but with a "Hogan's Alley" type of fairway between the shaggy stuff and the ocean and a wide fairway to the left that leaves a longer approach from an akward angle.

Just a thought.

[Kyle Henderson]

Last time I played there I was amazed that a couple of my opponents (including the worthy Tiger) hit their tee shots right of the trees.  That really never occurred to me, but what do I know?

Where haven't you played, Ace? My goodness! I wouldn't be so jealous if I didn't live a hour's drive from Cypress Mr. Transcontinental.

[Bill_McBride]

Last time I played there I was amazed that a couple of my opponents (including the worthy Tiger) hit their tee shots right of the trees.  That really never occurred to me, but what do I know?

Where haven't you played, Ace? My goodness! I wouldn't be so jealous if I didn't live a hour's drive from Cypress Mr. Transcontinental.

I have been a lucky guy, a lot of it based on the good fortune of being associated with GolfClubAtlas.

[Chip Gaskins]

better yet, have this view off the tee and then you don't have to worry about strategy



i actually love the trees, especially if there is plenty of fairway kept out to the left.  

but i suspect if it were built today folks (including myself...i didn't like the windmill at dismal river) would howl that the trees are in the way, out of place, and gimmicky.  then again, i thought 18 was a pretty neat hole at CPC.

[Ed Oden]

I haven't played Cypress.  But it seems to me that the trees are what make the 17th hole unique.  For those who think the hole would be "better" with the trees removed, would it also be more interesting or more fun to play?  What then would distinguish it from other cape holes?

Ed

[Ian Andrew]

I leave it for everyone else to decide ...

[Bill_McBride]

I leave it for everyone else to decide ...

The only problem is that you don't see that angle from any of the tees we play!  The room to the right of the trees looks to be about 20 yards wide from the farther back tees.

[Kalen Braley]

Ian,

Great work as usual...very nice.  Just for comparisons purposes, I'll post an original with it.

Current:


No Trees:

[Kyle Henderson]

Last time I played there I was amazed that a couple of my opponents (including the worthy Tiger) hit their tee shots right of the trees.  That really never occurred to me, but what do I know?

Where haven't you played, Ace? My goodness! I wouldn't be so jealous if I didn't live a hour's drive from Cypress Mr. Transcontinental.

I have been a lucky guy, a lot of it based on the good fortune of being associated with GolfClubAtlas.

You make your own luck, my friend. No one deserves good fortunes more than those of your ilk.

BTW: Does my nose look overly tan to you?

[Sean_A]

Jeepers!  I have been one of the ones who doesn't like the trees, but seeing the pic without now makes wonder.  Though to be fair, the strategy of the hole doesn't alter with or without trees no?  The best angle (I am told) is to approach from the right and the ocean seems a good guardian of this line of attack. 

Since we are talking about a place littered with lacey bunkers, Ian, can you stick one of those jobbies in there to replace the trees?  What am I talking about?  This is a Cal Mac design.  Can you stick in three lacey jobbies?

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

How wide is the fairway section right of the trees? If I am not mistaken, during The Match at least three of the four - Hogan and Ward for sure as memory serves - hit their drives there. But it looks really narrow in those pics.

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
I've played the hole probably 20 times and those trees (totally) dictate the strategy of that golf hole off the tee.  I first cursed them but after playing the hole over and over realized what an interesting hazard they are.
Mark

[Bill_McBride]

I leave it for everyone else to decide ...

The only problem is that you don't see that angle from any of the tees we play!  The room to the right of the trees looks to be about 20 yards wide from the farther back tees.

I'm a hapless victim of Photoshop!

[Tom Huckaby]

This has been discussed countless times before.

The answer always has been no, is now no, ever shall be no.

The photoshop alone decides it for those with no imagination.

With the trees it is one of the world's most unique golf holes, requiring thought and execution.

And by the way Bill, you obviously haven't been reading the 15 other threads about this hole - I have trumpeted that play right of the trees for years - risky shorter shot, very very unique.  Now bombing it all the way PAST the trees on the right, that's a play that just became real recently.  That's a game with which we all ought to be unfamiliar.

Sean - jeez I should have used photoshop the last 10 times we talked about this... I tried EVERYTHING to get you to understand how the trees dictate the play - as Mark just said.  But they do.  Without them then hell why bother hugging the right?  The angle is no better.... in fact it might be worse.  It does shorten the hole a little but who cares?  It's not that long to begin with. No, sans trees it's just a mindless blast to the left, only thought being don't go right.  I simply can't see this as being better.  Those who can play a different game than I do... don't want to have to be made to think, I guess.

Without it it becomes like oh so many others derided on Pete Dye courses (cape-ish with diagonal water hazard).  Oh it's prettier than those, but that's it.


I'm quite surprised you ask this, Pat.  Because I guess I can see that for the Tiger Woods's of the world, removing the trees does give them a very tempting play, just left of the green.. that is does allow them to bomb away.  But the percentage of golfers for whom that is a real play - trying to drive the green, or the very left side anyway - has to still be very very tiny, no?  So do you really want to ruin the golf hole for the vast majority just so that today's bombers have some temptation?  Aren't there plenty of holes already where they can do this... and precious few where they are made to think more, throttle back?

I don't get it.  Save yourself by saying "I was just asking the question."

In any case, if you want to change something on this hole, remove the bunkers behind the green, make it a skyline/sea-line greensite.  That too has been proposed countless times before.

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps they should have axed the trees and kept the bunkers:

[Brent Hutto]

Any question that begins "Would the 17th at CPC..." is one I have little time for. The tee of that hole is my favorite spot in the known universe and my imagination is insufficient to conceive of it being any different. It certainly cannot be improved upon in my humble opinion.

[Tom Huckaby]

Any question that begins "Would the 17th at CPC..." is one I have little time for. The tee of that hole is my favorite spot in the known universe and my imagination is insufficient to conceive of it being any different. It certainly cannot be improved upon in my humble opinion.

100% agreement - well said, Brent. I only offered up the potential change at the green because many have before... and hell if there is some mandate that something be changed, just let it be that.

But leaving a fantastic golf hole alone sure seems wise to me....

TH

[Sean_A]

Ok, so hugging the shoreline is not an advantage.  Seems a strange way to use the ocean, but there you have it.

Huck - hold your Cal-i-for-ni-a Mustangs right there pardna.   My big issue with the trees is that they can lead to the most boring shot in golf - the chip out or the lob over the top.  In the case of the 17th, it appears that this could often be the case and for a shot that is not much off line - no?  I say offline, but the fairway doesn't look huge and the trees look to be cutting that width dramatically down. 

I would like to see a shop job with bunkers, but to be honest, I gotta wonder about this hole not using the coastline to full advantage as you claim with your blast it out left/tehre is no advantage to being right remarks.  There are trees everywhere and that middle of the fairway tree shot can be done anywhere - why do it here at the expense of the coastline?  Why not use a bunker complex to achieve the double fairway effect (which lets face it is all the trees really do other than get in the way)?

All that said, the photo job does look a bit weird.  Perhaps I am so used to seeing those trees that as Brent suggests, I can't properly see it any other way.  What I do know is that everytime I have come come across trees in the middle of fairways I walked away shaking my head. 

Ciao

[Tom Huckaby]

"Huck - hold your Cal-i-for-ni-a Mustangs right there pardna.   My big issue with the trees is that they can lead to the most boring shot in golf - the chip out or the lob over the top.  In the case of the 17th, it appears that this could often be the case and for a shot that is not much off line - no?  I say offline, but the fairway doesn't look huge and the trees look to be cutting that width dramatically down.  "

That doesn't happen nearly as much as you seem to think, Sean - it only does if execution is poor and one gets too close to the trees.  Standing on that tee, there are choices.... but once you decide on one it's clear what one needs to do.  And given it's a short hole... so many still do try to go through, over, around the trees and reach the green, even when it does seem foolish. 

No, you don't have this correct either.  Which of course is understandable given you've never seen the hole in person.  I'd admonish you about perhaps trusting those of us who have, but that would be classless.

 

As for a bunker complex replacing the trees, that too has been covered many times before.... I don't see that as being any improvement - in fact it's worse.  Bunkers don't force one to curve the ball or change one's trajectory when behind them... and to get them severe enough to merit fear on the tee, well that would mean the only way out is the dreaded pitch out you want to avoid.

One more thing:

"What I do know is that everytime I have come come across trees in the middle of fairways I walked away shaking my head."

Is there not a first time for everything? Or do you truly believe in absolutes in this great game?

TH

[Rich Goodale]

Double B is almost right

One-hazard hazard Good.  Two-hazard hazard Bad.

However, without the trees, all you have to do is lay up short of the old bunkers.  First time I played the hole I fannied a 1-iron close to the edge of the water and had an easy PW to the green.

Make it a wide and deep sahara sort of hazard from 150-250 off the tee and you have a great hole.  As Sean says, chipping out from under a tree is one of the worst shots that an architect can induce from a player.

Rich

[Brent Hutto]

In thinking of the shots one might play in various situations, do consider the almost always present breeze. If nothing else, being on a bluff overlooking an ocean does maximize the effect of whatever wind is present on any given day (although I don't believe "nothing else" applies in this case).