Norman K Probstein(Forest Park St. Louis)

[Brian Noser]

OK here goes nothing, every time St. Louis golf comes up(not often) there are a few courses that get mentioned. Obvious ones STLCC, Bellerive. Glen Echo, Norwood Hills. This one has come up some as well and I enjoy playing it it is fun and there is some interesting Architecture out there. 

The first 9 holes was completed in 1912,  9 more in 1913 and the last 9 was completed in 1915 for 27 holes all designed By Robert Foulis, you all probably know Foulis worked as an assistant at St Andrews under Tom Morris. The course was Redesigned in 2001 by the Hale Irwin design firm with most of the work done by Steve Gentry. They currently still have 27 holes. The courses overall are short but they do have  character and I have assume there was a space constraint given the location in the city in the middle of a park over an existing course..

so on to the course...

first 9 holes from the redbud course

#1 Par 4 357 the hole starts at the top of a large hill playing to a wide fairway with the Ideal approach to the green down the left side for the best angle to avoid green side bunkers.





The Uphill 2nd plays 417 the bunkers on the right are reachable but they can not be carried. so one must play out to the left. OB lurks right and one never likes to hit cars or joggers or bikers for that matter. this hole and the next hole used to be a 600+ yard par 5.  the 2nd photo you will notice it a blind shot to the green over a bunker that looks to be green side but it is actually about 20 yards short of the surface.





3 plays 168 run of the mill par 3..



#4 par 4 plays 383 from the back tees. This is one of my favorite holes on the course. you play to a blindish landing area on the uphill tee shot. if you can carry it far enough over the ridge you will get a turbo boost(250-260),  left is dead both on the tee shot and to the green. 2nd pic if from 150 marker





# 5 is the first par 5 524 hard dog leg to the right. to GO for it left is better. It is a pretty good poke to get to the corner for a clear shot, the trees cut you off. The pic is from my ball I had 205 after my drive but no where to go straight at the green and the lay up is also tougher with the cross bunkers.




#6 205 The biarritz.. This hole plays to a.... well you know just look at the pics..









#7 430 This I think is the best hole on the course. The tee shot plays in to a gully in which you play back up the hill to a totally blind rectangle green, Yes a rectangle.





#8 347 This hole doglegs left with hazard right. There is a large tree guarding the left of the green. Down wind it is Drivable. the ideal play is just to the top of the ridge to the right then you are looking right down at the green with a wedge. if you don't hit it far enough over the ridge you are left with a tricky little down hill lie. 2nd photo is from over the ridge about 100 yards from down hill lie...





#9 329 back up the hill you just came from. with the 3 bunkers crossing at an angle it is easy to get in any of them. I believe it is about 275 to carry the middle bunker, the right one catches any weak fade as the fairway tilts that way.




the Dogwood 9

# 1 par 5 507 This is an original hole slightly changed, added bunkers. you play towards the art Museum (free to get in as is the zoo in the same park) the corner can be reached but there is internal OB right and OB left.  the 2nd plays uphill where you can just see the top of the flag there is a large long bunker left to help save Joggers from errant shots...







#2 Par 3 201 plays down hill to a tough green death left and long and bunker short.



#3 331 dogleg left. drivable. the green is over the big tree just left of the path. you can also lay out to the right and you will you have an up hill shot  not being able to see the green. 3rd photo is my drive got to post it for prosperity..







#4 351 this hole you want to play to the right. the green sits on an angle and runs away if you come from the left, and you will not have to go over the bunkers. that is the art museum on top of the hill...





# 5 par 3 148



# 6 Par 4 370 dogleg left with a cool green that runs sharply away and there is the cool little hump front right that makes you think just enough to get in you head.. 2nd pic is from my dive from 79 yards and you can see the little hump to go around(history  museum in the background also free)





# 7 par 4 438 good hole not good pics right into the setting sun. Dogleg right with a lake on the left of the green.

# 8 par 3 131 cool little hole, in the summer the grass in the front grows so you cant see the putting surface. It looks as if you have to get it all the way to the green when in reality there is room short of the green albeit in a bunker but at least it is playable. it is pretty deceptive and the green is pretty fun as well..





# 9 long Par 5 to finish 633. lake left all the way down kind of mundane finisher just don't hit it in the drink..






They have a new club house but this is the old one and I thought it was a pretty cool club house to have...



I had golf fever and wanted to take some pics and contribute a little something here that some of you may have never seen... see ya...


 

 

[Joe Hancock]

Brian,

Thanks for doing this. I've never seen the course, but looks to be quite enjoyable. Was it playing as fast as it looks?

I liked seeing the blue dye on the bermuda/ zoysia. I'm sure they were doing some weed control...it reminds me of my days in NC....

Joe

[PCCraig]

Forest Park is really a pretty cool place, esp. if you are not from the area.

I would agree that there may be better overall public golf courses in the area to play, but Forest Park would be the first place I would tell someone (a la on a business trip with time for one quick round) to go play.

What makes it so cool is that it is set in this huge Central Park sized park that was left over from the World's Fair (I hope I'm correct here). The golf course is just part of the park, which leaves a neat community feeling with the course.

I can't actually see the pictures right now while at work for whatever reason, but I'll be sure to check them out later when I get home.

[Evan Fleisher]

Brian,

Thanks for the neat tour!  I lived in St. Louis back in 1992 for a few years, but unfortunately never got to play at Forest Park.

As a quick side note however...I did PROPOSE to my wife on the outdoor ice skating rink in the park back on a frozen December evening in 1993! "Ice on the ice" as she likes to tell the story... 

[Bill_McBride]

Brown is beautiful. 

[Phil McDade]

Brian:

Great photo essay; as one who's done a few, I'm a big fan of in-depth photo essays of somewhat obscure, under-the-radar courses with some interesting design pedigree. A few of the holes remind me of the Robert Foulis-designed Bonnie Brook in Waukegan, IL. I like the use of ridge lines on fairways -- holes 4 and 8 look really cool. Is the Biarritz a Foulis original? I didn't know they used template holes in their design work.

The St. Louis urban park district is a really neat place -- a terrific zoo, some very good museums, and a real urban get-away ala Central Park in some ways. My brother lives in the area and goes there all the time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Brian,

Thank you very much for a terrific photo essay.   I've never been to St. Louis, but when I get there someday I will certainly look it up.

I love this type of course and the very natural, understated architecture.   It appears for the most part that the Hale Irwin group didn't fuss with it too much...would that be a correct impression?

Also, one bit of downside...if there were ever a case to be made for banning asphalt cartpaths, I would put a few of those pics in my Exhibit A.   They are a blight and Melvyn is right!     

Otherwise...great stuff!

[Brian Noser]

Joe,

The course was firm for the winter months here, but by no means fast and firm. The Zoyzia when long,dormant and unmowed prevents this from happining. In the summer they generally have it pretty good and firm. I have driven #4 redbud in the summer catching the proper turbo boost.

Phil, Most of the holes are changed, the Biarrtz was an adder not original I think all of the greens were redone and many of the holes were moved and swithced. Of course some of the routing still exists but most is gone. There was a hole playing in front of the Art musuem (see the pic) at one point which played as a par 5 to an Alps like green I believe.  this is gone so the park can use the hill for recreation IE picnicers, walkers etc. it is now jsut a big green hill..

By the Way 18 dollars to walk yesterday... there were a lot of walkers out yesterday you all would be proud...

[Mike Benham]

By the Way 18 dollars to walk yesterday... there were a lot of walkers out yesterday you all would be proud...

Joggers, were there any joggers?

Courses in the heart of cities, in parks (think Brookside adjacent to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena), usually have additional scenery ...

[Tom Walsh]

Yes! the Park. "where are you playing?" "the Park"
I've been playing it off and on since 1970. In all of it's incarnations.
The bad--the 1970s-rock hard tees, sparse greens, maintenance done by the city. Horrendous, but there weren't many publics close in to play. Lousy drainage.
The good--the 1980s 1990s- hired a real super, management by American Golf. Kept hard and fast. The par of the big course was 69 I think. I shot a 74 there once in the Publinx Open. (one of the few city wide public tournaments)
The remodeled--If you squint a lot of the original Foulis is still there especially where the big 18 was. I agree now it plays a little short. All in all it has lots more corporate events than I like. I play there a lot less than I did back in the day. They claim to be a 'learning center', but have no practice area. I may be wrong, but a lot less kid friendly since the remodel.

Hey Forest Park has another 9--the Triple A Club, where Judy Rankin learned to play as a kid. Dates to 1903, a real antique. I think they are remodeling.

Thanks for the memories. Tom

[Jim Nugent]

Brian, thanks very much for posting this.  I played Forest Park scores of times or more, in the mid to late 1960's and early 1970's.  Really enjoy seeing what they did to the course: much of it looks the same today as it did then.  BTW, back in the 1920's, it held the U.S. Public Links one year.  

In tournaments, which is the front nine?  

[Tim_Cronin]

Is this course named after the former doctor for the St. Louis Blues? He had an office at the old Chase Park Plaza hotel, across from the park.

[Brian Noser]

Yes, Mike additinal scenery is present.... Also Washington university is Right across the street, visable in the first picture... so that help with the "scenery"



Tom: I like to call it FOPO... and yes Tripe A is being remodeled by the same group Steve Gentry. the will have a lighted driving range there..

Jim,

The order I show it is how it was played in the City championship finish on the Par 5 not sure how they do the St. Louis pub links that they hold there...

[Steve Pozaric]

Great job on FoPo.   

In the summer, it is a very vibrant atmosphere and there is a lot of very good "scenery" around. 

I really miss the Art Hill Hole (the fairway was on the hill below the Art Museum and you had a blind shot over a ridge to get to the green).  It was a little goofy, but how many other holes do you get to contend with people playing frisbee?  In the summer, especially on that old Art Hill hole, you get added hazards of sunbathers and picnicers who don't seem to realize that the nice flat areas are not just great places to play catch with their kids.   The Biarritz is original.   

The biggest changes were made to the old "flat 9" (not pictured in the thread).  It was short, boring and flat.  They really did a great job with those holes.

For visitors, don't park next to the first hole as a lot of slicers will put balls into the street!  Also, for those that compare it to Central Park, remember that Central Park is only 843 acres and Forest Park is 1293 acres.

I also hadn't heard about the range at Triple A.  That is good news for golfers in the city.

[Jeff_Stettner]

By the Way 18 dollars to walk yesterday... there were a lot of walkers out yesterday you all would be proud...

Joggers, were there any joggers?

Courses in the heart of cities, in parks (think Brookside adjacent to the Rose Bowl in Pasadena), usually have additional scenery ...

Mike,
I was running right by the Redbud holes around 2PM. So yes, there was scenery. 

[Jim Nugent]

I really miss the Art Hill Hole (the fairway was on the hill below the Art Museum and you had a blind shot over a ridge to get to the green). 

I liked all the first four holes in the old routing.  (Art Hill was #4.)  Unusual routing: 2 and 3 were both par 3's (long, tough ones)...while 4 and 5 were both par 5's.  Actually, years before they had still a different #1.  A little east, with a stream diagonally crossing the fairway and then running along the right side of the fairway to the green.  Not sure when they made the change, but by 1967 that hole was no longer in use. 

Old 17 was charming, a 140 or so yard par 3 over the lagoon.  New 4 on the Redbud looks better to me than the hole it replaces: old #10, which was a long, semi-blind par 3.  My favorite used to be #13, which is now #7. 

Even though the course measured in under 5900 yards, few broke the par of 70.  4 of the 6 par 3's were tough, and so was #9, the long par 5 along Skinker. 

[Steve Pozaric]

Especially after they redid the lagoon, #17 was in a great setting. 

[Jim Nugent]

Especially after they redid the lagoon, #17 was in a great setting. 

When was that?

[Brian Noser]

Steve,

Are you sure the biarritz is original, I do not remember it being a biarritz? The hole is in the same spot but the green from the old aerials does not seem to look like it is possiable? It looks like a small circle like most of the other greens.. the routing is very simalar though it is pretty cool to look at the old aerial and see the big changes... the art hill hole you can see as well..

[Tom Walsh]

the biaritz not original. That green/hole is the old number 12 - a slight uphill par three 190 or so in the old days to a 'normal green' w/ two bunkers

[Steve Pozaric]

Must be a faulty memory on my part re the green. 

[Tom Walsh]

the biarritz not original but still cool. the remodel/renovation was long overdue. it doesn't get all the love it should maybe, but I don't miss the old days of quirk. the old 2 and 3 were double tough and I miss them, but 4 on art hill and the old number 9 were crazy. Par 5's with a blind second on number 4 and often a blind 3rd shot on number 9 unless you were good and long.   Tom