Pebble Beach v Riviera ?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom -

How are you able to assess design variety as a Golf Digest rater?

I answer the question based on the definition given.

How varied are the holes in terms of differing lengths (long,
medium and short par 3s, 4s and 5s), configurations (straight
holes, doglegs left and right), hazard placements, green shapes
and green contours?

What information or knowledge do I need other than viewing the course to make that assessment?

Sorry, I thought that an assessment of "design variety" would ask

How varied were the design processes in terms of tools used (motorized, animal powered, the human hand), blueprints (detailed diagrams, stick-in-the-sand), and temperment of the architect (cool and collected, raving maniac) used to construct this course?

OK.  Think what you want.  That's not what we are asked.  What I quoted is the GD definition.  But of course I couldn't come close to answering the question you posed.  It's cool some here can.  I do like the question in any case!

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Your logic is appreciated here!  I think the Ocean part of this argument is TOTALLY understated.  "What is the Riv had ocean views".....blah, blah,blah...

Pebble doesn't just have Ocean views......the ocean is IN PLAY.......ON 9 HOLES!!!! Give me a break.....go ahead and give Riviera all the ocean views you want.  Pebble IS the ocean.  Is there anything like standing on #8 (or any other ocean holes) and knowing your ball might end up there???

The finishing holes are not even to be compared.  Really, is there a better 17/18 than Pebble....really??

Well Mike, you and I see it this way... others differ.  Oh well. 

I have never understood this whole "take away the ocean" argument in any case. 

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Tom And David,

You have done well grasshopper standing in for me. My opinions are based largely on TV viewing as well as seen/walked Pebble several times in person even though I've never ponied up the big $$$ to play it yet.

[Adam Clayman]

The ap called weak holes @ PB all have fine features on a micro level. This adds to the consistency throughout. Name a hole and ill attempt to quantify each nuance. 15 is always considered the weakest and it has loads of stuff going on. There is no set way to play any hole only time tested reactions to where one does play each shot. 

[Kalen Braley]

In the context of this thread....how about some discussion of the ho-hum holes at Riv?

To be clear for the peanut gallery, I haven't played this course, nor seen it in person.  But I did drive by it once and the night before I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express!! 

Impressions based on countless viewings of the annual tourney, threads on GCA.com, and aerials.

Here are some potential candidates:

#2 - Slight dogleg right up the hill with bunkering in front.  I've played several variations of this.

#11 - Straight away par 4 with not much action going on other than negotiating the barranca if tee ball doesn't find fairway.

#14 - Perhaps the best case for a ho-hum hole. I've played several different versions of this with bunkering left and right and the symetrical oval green.

#15 - Long Dogleg right flattish hole with bunker on inside corner.

Even Hole 13 looks to be a typical penal right to left hole.  The wash is interesting, but like everyone says about Pebble...take away the wash and what do you have? Ditto the wash in front of 12 too?   


Are these any better/ more compelling than the ho-hummers at Pebble assuming we're talking 1, 2, 3, 12, 15?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Kalen
You should at least get the par correct on the holes you mention.  In addition to the par, your descriptions of the holes are a bit lacking.  For example, where have you previously played a green like #15 at Riviera?

[Tom Huckaby]

Hey Lynn - I thought of something that might sum this up.  You are likely to switch around my order... but how's this:

Pebble Beach is to Riviera as 1968 UCLA Bruins hoops team was to 1968 Santa Clara Broncos, at end of season.

You and I might be the ONLY people in this forum who get that, at least without lookup.  Not even Benham I don't think... he's not as into Bronco history as I am.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen
You should at least get the par correct on the holes you mention.  In addition to the par, your descriptions of the holes are a bit lacking.  For example, where have you previously played a green like #15 at Riviera?

Lynn,

Good call on the #11..my bad.  But on one level, it kinda plays like a par 4 when the big boys are in town right?   

I did know that #15 on Riv has a pretty cool green...but to PBs defense, all of the holes that get dissed also have pretty interesting, tricky, and unique greens too.  So I'd call that part of it a wash.

The purpose of the post was calling BS on PB getting called to the carpet for having some ho-hum holes when Riv has a few itself... 

[David Stamm]

Kalen
You should at least get the par correct on the holes you mention.  In addition to the par, your descriptions of the holes are a bit lacking.  For example, where have you previously played a green like #15 at Riviera?

I was thinking the same thing, Lynn. The green on 15 has to be seen to be appreciated.

[Bob_Huntley]

Lyn,

Don't you think Riviera's 14th hole is pretty ordinary?

Bob

[David Stamm]

Kalen
You should at least get the par correct on the holes you mention.  In addition to the par, your descriptions of the holes are a bit lacking.  For example, where have you previously played a green like #15 at Riviera?

Lynn,

Good call on the #11..my bad.  But on one level, it kinda plays like a par 4 when the big boys are in town right?   

So does 2 at PB.

I did know that #15 on Riv has a pretty cool green...but to PBs defense, all of the holes that get dissed also have pretty interesting, tricky, and unique greens too.  So I'd call that part of it a wash.

PB does have a couple, but taken as a whole, the greens on Riviera are more unique. TV does not do them justice. I remember Spaulding, who had gone to the LA Open many times before, telling me after playing it for the first time how he couldn't believe the contouring after actually playing it. If memory serves, 15's green is one of Robin's favorites and rightfully so. It's a blast.

The purpose of the post was calling BS on PB getting called to the carpet for having some ho-hum holes when Riv has a few itself... 

I'll agree 14 at PB is not supremely intersting. As for your comment on number 2 above, 2 is a hell of a hole. Fade tee shot and draw approach. It's a fearsome hole when playing from the tourney tees. I believe Bob has some fond memories of the hole and it's merits. And 13, well, if you can't hit a draw at will the hole is one tough hombre.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen
You should at least get the par correct on the holes you mention.  In addition to the par, your descriptions of the holes are a bit lacking.  For example, where have you previously played a green like #15 at Riviera?

Lynn,

Good call on the #11..my bad.  But on one level, it kinda plays like a par 4 when the big boys are in town right?   

So does 2 at PB.

I did know that #15 on Riv has a pretty cool green...but to PBs defense, all of the holes that get dissed also have pretty interesting, tricky, and unique greens too.  So I'd call that part of it a wash.

PB does have a couple, but taken as a whole, the greens on Riviera are more unique. TV does not do them justice. I remember Spaulding, who had gone to the LA Open many times before, telling me after playing it for the first time how he couldn't believe the contouring after actually playing it. If memory serves, 15's green is one of Robin's favorites and rightfully so. It's a blast.

The purpose of the post was calling BS on PB getting called to the carpet for having some ho-hum holes when Riv has a few itself... 

I'll agree 14 at PB is not supremely intersting. As for your comment on number 2 above, 2 is a hell of a hole. Fade tee shot and draw approach. It's a fearsome hole when playing from the tourney tees. I believe Bob has some fond memories of the hole and it's merits. And 13, well, if you can't hit a draw at will the hole is one tough hombre.

Dave it sounds like we're kind of on the same page then. As stated above I was only trying to point out that Riv just like PB has some holes that are less than epic. 

And as much as I even may be inclined to think the greens at Riv just may be better, it doesn't meant PB's greens are chopped liver...they are still right up there as well.

Perhaps Rans hole match play is in order at this point?? 

[Rob Rigg]

Who is going to step up and do the head to head??

Preferably someone who has played both courses (and not only on TW Wii Golf like I have).

PS - Pebble is the better course on TW Wii Golf because of the crashing waves on the ocean holes which totally makes the experience epic (DUDE!). The lost ball potential over the side of the cliffs also adds an element of heart pounding adventure. Riviera is a lot of fun to play as well, one of my fav courses in the game, but in the TW Golf world it's no PB.

[Tim Leahy]

Head to head won't really resolve anything, because those of us that prefer playing on the cliffs with the ocean as a hazard will always pick 4 thru 10 and 17 & 18 at Pebble over anything at Riviera. Throw in nos. 14 and 16 at Pebble for the greens alone. Everything else is a push except for No. 1. Final score Pebble wins 9 and 8.

And yes, I have played both courses and even know some of Riviera's history(Did you know no. 2 was designed as a par 5, I actually stood on the orig. tee, 570 yds I believe, and that there is an elevated tee for No. 5 in a backyard next to the tee being used now)

[Lynn_Shackelford]

1967-68  UCLA 87    Santa Clara 66, a pretty close game throughout the warm-ups.

1968-69  UCLA 90   Santa Clara 52, I think they regret getting on the bus to go to the game.

In 1967-68 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #2, Santa Clara was unranked
In 1968-69 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #1, Santa Clara was ranked #3.  For the life of me I don't know why.

I think comparing the two teams is like comparing Pebble Beach to a muni?

Bob,
Yes, 14 at Riviera is pretty mundane.  In its original state of summer and winter tees, it would have been pretty keen to play.  The current tee location is between the two original tees.  The tee on the left is still there and with a left hole position is still good, although a bit short for the pros.

Some of Tom Doak's description of the 15th Riviera
"At 443 yards, and playing into the prevailing winds up the valley to boot, the 15th is the strongest par 4 at Riviera, and one of the strongest in the land."
The green
"The key feature of the hole is its green, which is the largest and the most heavily contoured at Riviera.  George Thomas was not a believer in radical contours within the green, though he was quick to defend sloped greens against hostile criticism where the greens had become excessively fast through dry conditions.  But Thomas was a grand strategist, and he saw the potential for adding interest to a hole through contouring the green if the pin placement areas were big enough for the shots required."

Tim, I think you are referring to the 70's and 80's when #2 was a par 5 for the members.
In the original design, like LACC North, the second hole was to be a long par 4.
There is much talk about the tee on #5 and how high up it was, when it was built, but I am not sure there is any consensus.
So before you give Pebble your 9 and 8 win, you better get your facts straight.

[Bob_Huntley]

Head to head won't really resolve anything, because those of us that prefer playing on the cliffs with the ocean as a hazard will always pick 4 thru 10 and 17 & 18 at Pebble over anything at Riviera. Throw in nos. 14 and 16 at Pebble for the greens alone. Everything else is a push except for No. 1. Final score Pebble wins 9 and 8.

And yes, I have played both courses and even know some of Riviera's history(Did you know no. 2 was designed as a par 5, I actually stood on the orig. tee, 570 yds I believe, and that there is an elevated tee for No. 5 in a backyard next to the tee being used now)

Tim,

I played the 2nd at Riviera as a par five but never at the length you mentioned. Gosh I had a two on the hole and there is no way I could get anywhere near from 570 yards.

Bob

[James Bennett]

My two cents worth....

I have only walked Pebble, not played it, so I am not adding to the Riviera vs Pebble debate.  I can't.

However, Riviera holes #2 and #15 are just outstanding.  And #14 with its multiple tees (there were three different lines of play when I saw it in 2007) is a worthwhile par 3.

In my mind, #13 was the least best hole at Riviera, but the removal of the trees on the inside of the dogleg might fix that.

If I look at what was available for the two courses, well it says something that Riviera can be considered in the same breath as Pebble.  Riviera has limited elevation change (aside from #1 and #18) compared to Pebble, probably has lesser quality soil (I am guessing here) and has the burden of kikuyu for turf.  Yet for many it would be their preferred play compared to Pebble.  Certainly it is more difficult to lose a ball at Riviera (although a big block on holes like #4 will never be seen again) and so perhaps the foozler will have more pleasure at Riviera.

Pebble is so spectacular in places - I can but wonder and dream about what it would be like to be challenged so often in my regular round by the ocean.

James B

[Bill_McBride]

My two cents worth....

I have only walked Pebble, not played it, so I am not adding to the Riviera vs Pebble debate.  I can't.

However, Riviera holes #2 and #15 are just outstanding.  And #14 with its multiple tees (there were three different lines of play when I saw it in 2007) is a worthwhile par 3.

In my mind, #13 was the least best hole at Riviera, but the removal of the trees on the inside of the dogleg might fix that.

If I look at what was available for the two courses, well it says something that Riviera can be considered in the same breath as Pebble.  Riviera has limited elevation change (aside from #1 and #18) compared to Pebble, probably has lesser quality soil (I am guessing here) and has the burden of kikuyu for turf.  Yet for many it would be their preferred play compared to Pebble.  Certainly it is more difficult to lose a ball at Riviera (although a big block on holes like #4 will never be seen again) and so perhaps the foozler will have more pleasure at Riviera.

Pebble is so spectacular in places - I can but wonder and dream about what it would be like to be challenged so often in my regular round by the ocean.

James B

Last Saturday during the Northern Trust (aka L.A. Open) was the first time I ever saw Riviera so I can't say a lot, but I didn't see #13 as a weak hole.  The Saturday pin was in the back left, precariously close to the barranca and actually behind a part of the barranca that protruded into the green surface.  I thought that was so much better than a bunker would have been, although the barranca is now maintained as kikuyu grass rather than the original sandy wash.

If #13 is the weakest hole out there, there are 17 really superb holes!

[James Bennett]

If #13 is the weakest hole out there, there are 17 really superb holes!

Bill

exactly.  Every course has a 'least best' hole.  It often says something about the other 17.  I think Tom Huckaby or Adam Clayman was making the same point about Pebble.  If #15 is the 'least best' at Pebble, and there is some special aspects to that hole then that says something about Pebble overall.

James B

ps

Bill, I didn't mind the tree-lined fairways at Riviera except for two stands of trees - the said trees on the inside of the #13 dogleg, and the trees between the dual fairways of #8.  The playing corridors at Riviera are fine, not as wide as a Doak course but not claustrophobic either.  They are not as narrow as the TV coverage and blimp shots imply.

[mark chalfant]

I have played Pebble Beach 3 times ( primarily with single digit h'cppers) and no one in our foursome ever expressed admiration of Pebble's  1,2,12, or 15. The most common declarations of these well travelled golfers was "bland"  "prosaic, or "disappointing"

[Pat Burke]

As a freeloading golf pro, get invited to both on occasion, and always head to Monterey if at al possible.  Live an hour and a half from Riv, and rarely want to deal with the traffic to play it.
So, willing to deal with ATA screeners abd not willing to deal with the 405 freeway, makes me a Pebble voter I guess

[Matt Day]

As a freeloading golf pro, get invited to both on occasion, and always head to Monterey if at al possible.  Live an hour and a half from Riv, and rarely want to deal with the traffic to play it.
So, willing to deal with ATA screeners abd not willing to deal with the 405 freeway, makes me a Pebble voter I guess

Pat
this may sound like a weird question, but did you play on the Australian tour in the late 1980's

[Tom Huckaby]

1967-68  UCLA 87    Santa Clara 66, a pretty close game throughout the warm-ups.

1968-69  UCLA 90   Santa Clara 52, I think they regret getting on the bus to go to the game.

In 1967-68 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #2, Santa Clara was unranked
In 1968-69 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #1, Santa Clara was ranked #3.  For the life of me I don't know why.

I think comparing the two teams is like comparing Pebble Beach to a muni?

LOL!
At least I gave you a nice trip down memory lane.  I had blocked out the game results... just focusing on the rankings.  However, if the shoe fits....

The point is Pebble Beach is UCLA, Riviera is Santa Clara - an interesting geographical role-reversal.

 

[David Stamm]

1967-68  UCLA 87    Santa Clara 66, a pretty close game throughout the warm-ups.

1968-69  UCLA 90   Santa Clara 52, I think they regret getting on the bus to go to the game.

In 1967-68 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #2, Santa Clara was unranked
In 1968-69 coming into the game UCLA was ranked #1, Santa Clara was ranked #3.  For the life of me I don't know why.

I think comparing the two teams is like comparing Pebble Beach to a muni?

 

The point is Pebble Beach is UCLA, Riviera is Santa Clara - an interesting geographical role-reversal.

 

Don't insult The Riv.

[Tom Huckaby]

David - hey you gotta love the comparison... praise the man's team (at the expense of my beloved alma mater) yet insult his choice of golf courses... kinda tough for him to fire back too hard at me!

Question for you who prefer Riv though:  does the equation change if we make it Riv v. Cypress Point?