Pebble Beach v Riviera ?

[Matt_Ward]

For those who have played both what course do you favor and why ?

I will respond with my take after a few people have aired their thoughts.

For those who have not played both what do you prefer from just the TV time you have seen with both ?

Many thanks ...

[Joel_Stewart]

Despite the 6 hour rounds, Pebble Beach.  The esthetics outweigh any other features.  Without thinking it through, I would weigh them equally in difficulty.

[TX Golf]

Pebble

[PCCraig]

Is it even close??

[ed_getka]

I have only played each once, but I prefer Riviera. Both courses are good tests of golf, but I find Riviera to be more interesting. Pebble has smallish greens which are a test to hit with approaches. Riviera has more going on internally on the greens which is something I prefer. I feel like the sequence of holes have such a great flow at Riviera where there are testing holes mixed in with holes that make you feel like you can recover from your missteps. Pebble has some really daunting stretches of golf like #8-#10 and #17-18 where you can get crushed. Pebble starts off relatively easily for the first 4 holes so the pacing of the requirements of the course at Pebble is a bit more unbalanced in my opinion.
    I personally don't give much weight to setting when evaluating what I like and don't like about a course, if I did then clearly Pebble would have an edge there. However, if I were giving weight to setting, Sand Hills would blow away Pebble IMO. The wide open spaces and distance from "civilization" are much more important to me.

[Adam Clayman]

They are both great places to enjoy the sport, for different reasons, and, they are closer than their surfaces would reveal.

One could argue The Riv is a better original design because it is compelling without the aide of the Pacific Ocean and a remarkable shoreline.

There is no great short par four on Pebble like the 10th at the Riv. As good as the tenth is, I'm partial to the ninth at CPC. But, once again, the Riv's hole is on a flat nothing section of the property. Creating that kind of subtle greatness without the help of mother nature's character (like the sexy dunes on CPC's 9th) could be considered a more impressive design feat.

[mark chalfant]

Matt

I prefer Riviera. Like Ed getka mentioned,   I find Riviera to have a much nicer flow, as well as greens with more interesting contours. I also find the strech of  15-18 at Riviera to have more  character (not scenery) than 15-18 at Pebble. I know  Jack Lemmon once had a net bogey on Pebbles 18th  and Jack N. once  hit the flag on 17. However to play on a frequent basis, or watch pros play a testing course, I prefer that great/ strategic  layout that George Thomas crafted from a very unpromising piece of terrain.

p.s.  I also contend  that Riviera gets off to a fabulous start (1-4) that is probably more challenging, and certainly more interesting than Pebbles opening quartet

[Tom Huckaby]

Ed Getka / Mark Chalfant:

Do you play golf with blinders on?

Setting matters. 

Pebble Beach for me.  It's more inspiring, more spritual by far, and way way way more fun.

BUT.. are we talking in terms of design, or as a venue on which to play this game?

I am answering the latter, as I am fully unqualified to answer the former.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Given what people have weighed in thus far ...

how much does setting impact one's thinking when assessing a golf layout?

My guess is that those who favor PB believe it's very important -- those opting for Riviera would tend to see that ingredient in a far lesser light.

[Tom Huckaby]

I would hope that only Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles discount setting completely.

But hell, I've ranted about this countless times before.  I just plain can't see the logic of discounting scenery.  And before Mucci has a conniption fit, it's not the ONLY issue... just to discount it completely seems illogical to me.

BTW...I can't see Riviera winning this even if one discounts scenery... but hell, I haven't played Riv in 30 years.  It just didn't inspire me all that much then and outside of #10 (which is a great great golf hole) from what I see on TV I can't see much that would change my opinion.  Great course, would love to play it again... but better than Pebble Beach?  Wow I can't see that....

TH

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tom H.
You haven't played Riviera in 30 years.  You think it has one great hole?  And you weigh in an opinion anyway and say Pebble is better.
Are you serious?

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H.
You haven't played Riviera in 30 years.  You think it has one great hole?  And you weigh in an opinion anyway and say Pebble is better.
Are you serious?

Oh great Bruin lefthander, once vanquished by me....

Yes I am quite serious.  Matt said to opine whether you have played the courses or not.  I did play Riv several times oh those many years ago... but yes not in a long time.  But of course it's also not exactly a closed book - many pictures and there is this thing called TV.  Books also, including one by this Jeff or Jeffrey or Geoff character so oft-discussed in here... 

That being said, take my opinion here of course with an OCEAN of salt. 

Just do note - I mean this as no SLIGHT on Riv - I said 10 is "a" great hole, not meant to be exclusive.  There are many great holes there of course.  From all I can see and remember it is a wonderful golf course.  I went too far saying it didn't inspire me all that much... heck it's just an annoyed reaction as here we go on this "setting doesn't matter" stuff again.

So mea culpa there.

It is certainly a wonderful course.

It's just not Pebble Beach.  And that's no disgrace - very very very few courses are its equal.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Tom H.
You haven't played Riviera in 30 years.  You think it has one great hole?  And you weigh in an opinion anyway and say Pebble is better.
Are you serious?

Lynn, Riviera is a great golf course which I really enjoyed finally getting to see last weekend.  It's loaded with good to great holes, I didn't see a weak one.  I loved the way the holes along the western edge made the players continually flirt with the barranca (which I wish was once again a sandy wash  ).

But can it touch Pebble Beach with that string of holes along the cliffs above the Pacific Ocean?  I don't think so.  Pebble, to me, is a rare Doak 9.5 while Riviera is a solid Doak 8. Only the inland holes keep Pebble from a 10.  And the ugly continuous concrete cart paths.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H.
You haven't played Riviera in 30 years.  You think it has one great hole?  And you weigh in an opinion anyway and say Pebble is better.
Are you serious?

Lynn, Riviera is a great golf course which I really enjoyed finally getting to see last weekend.  It's loaded with good to great holes, I didn't see a weak one.  I loved the way the holes along the western edge made the players continually flirt with the barranca (which I wish was once again a sandy wash  ).

But can it touch Pebble Beach with that string of holes along the cliffs above the Pacific Ocean?  I don't think so.  Pebble, to me, is a rare Doak 9.5 while Riviera is a solid Doak 8. Only the inland holes keep Pebble from a 10.  And the ugly continuous concrete cart paths.

Sanity has arrived.  Well said, oh great Bear right-hander.

 

[mark chalfant]

Matt

I think setting is part of the equation, but not primary.  Personally I much prefer both Newport and Eastward Ho over Pebble Beach. They have more design consistency over the entire round. indeed Eastward Ho, Newport, and Fishers Island  combine remarkable architecture, Throughout 18 holes, with an unforgettable sense of place. Pebble does not

[Tom Huckaby]

OK this is going to be fun.

But before I fight this battle again... Mark, are you an architect or otherwise in the industry?

If so, I bow out.  You can discuss things like design consistency with great knowledge, and I recede to the corner.

If not... well we will cover that if necessary.

 

[mark chalfant]

Tom,

Im not an architect, 

I'm the fashion business in New York and I repair swim suits for Heidi Klum and Penelope  Cruz

[Bill_McBride]

Matt

I think setting is part of the equation, but not primary.  Personally I much prefer both Newport and Eastward Ho over Pebble Beach. They have more design consistency over the entire round. indeed Eastward Ho, Newport, and Fishers Island  combine remarkable architecture, Throughout 18 holes, with an unforgettable sense of place. Pebble does not

Personally I love the way both Pebble and Cypress Point take you to the water, then away, and then back for the glorious climax.

I haven't played any of the three Mark references but they must be superb.  Newport looked a bit dull on TV in the Amateur final.

Pebble's routing and pace?

Let's see - you start off a little low key, then get into it at #4, #5, #6!!, #7!!, #8!!!, #9!!!, #10!!!, then a breather until #17!! and #18!!!.  I personally like that rhythm thing a lot.

Mark, that sounds like a pretty cool job.   

[JMEvensky]

I'm the fashion business in New York and I repair swim suits for Heidi Klum and Penelope  Cruz

This would trump golf course design.

[Bob_Huntley]

Mark,

We have not been asked to look to Fishers Island, Newport and Eastood Ho, but the relative merits of Riviera vs Pebble Beach. Having played both many, many times, it is rather like being asked which of your childen do you favor.

All I can say is that when travelling from Santa Monica to play Pebble it was done in great anticipation of the joys ahead, when going the other way it was rather like going to see an old friend and reminiscing about shots made and one of the best routings in golf.

I wouldn't do this with my children but I think I'll pick Pebble.


Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom,

Im not an architect, 

I'm the fashion business in New York and I repair swim suits for Heidi Klum and Penelope  Cruz

LOL!  Well done.  Opine away. To the corner I go, if only out of great respect.
 

[Tim Leahy]

I have played both courses and Pebble is the winner not only for beauty but for "fear factor". Riviera has no shots that really scare you or penalize you the way that the ocean does at Pebble for a moderately missed shot. Sure there is the bunker in the green on no. 6 at Riv, but even there you don't lose your ball. Miss the green by 10 yds at no. 7 or no. 17 at Pebble and it's two strokes and a new ball. The second shot at no. 8 at Pebble has no comparison to any hole at Riv when it comes to fear factor. Miss the ball slightly right on 9 or 10 or slightly left on 18 at Pebble and it's bye bye. It's like comparing a roller coaster to a merry go round!

[Bob_Huntley]

Tim,

I always thought the two toughest holes at Riviera were the twelth and thirteenth, too much right hand in the shot and you were dead in the barranca.

Bob

[David Stamm]

I dearly love Pebble, but I prefer Riviera. There is so much more going on the greens and the course is more "balanced". There was more done with less at Riviera than at Pebble. The setting should not be discounted, but having said that, the design of Riviera is superior, IMHO. In other words, there's more architecture. As for the comparison of scary shots, while the ocean stretch is certainly tough, the approach at 2, the tee shot on 4, the approach on 10 if missed right, the tee shot on 13 and the 18th overall are very challenging in their own right. If you have never seen them in person, it's difficult to explain. Riv's collection of par 3's have the edge, but obviously PB has a couple of great ones. While 4 at PB is a underrated short 4, it has nothing to compare to Riv's 10th. While not as scenic, I'll stack 2, 3, 9, 13, 15 and 18 against PB's and I think it would be very close. PB has the edge on the par 5's. There are more "weak" holes at PB as well. I love them both very much, but I would rather play Riviera if I had to choose.

[Tom Huckaby]

Sorry... I know I said I'd stay in the corner but I can't resist....

It seems to me this has very little to do with setting.  Those who want to assess "design" and "architecture" prefer Riv, those who base this on playing the game prefer Pebble.

We know where you stand, David.  And me.