Southward Ho! information

[JMorgan]

Anyone who has info on the genesis of this club, please post or shoot me a PM.  Thanks.

(That would be the Southward Ho located in Bay Shore, LI, NY... attrib. to AWT (1923).)

It was created to replace O-Co-Nee GC, the site of which had been sold for development.

[ChipRoyce]

I grew up on that course and have a fair bit of info on it.

Tillinghast designed back in 1923. USGA's golf house has 1/2 of the orig. plans of the course as printed in Tillie's magazine.

Not sure about replacing something called 'o-co-nee GC' - would be interested to learn more. There is a neighborhood that I grew up in called "o-co-nee" (1900's property development).

Course was founded in 1923 by locals, however due to depression, club almost folded. Instead Horace Havemeyer, of the US Sugar Company, took possession of a note, funding the club until the membership could pay it back. The club's prestigious "Havemeyer Invitational" is named after him and is a fixture on the area's top amateur circuit.

The course is a very nice and well restored example of Tillie's work. Still resembles the orig. course - only thing dramatically missing is a large cross bunker on the par 4 5th that would otherwise dramatically change the nature of the hole.

Plays to about 6600 from the tips. While located on Long Island and close to the water, is a true parkland course with a fair amount of trees, vs. linksy feel. IMHO, the course would benefit from a significant tree removal effort.

Lots of small greens with traditional back to front slopes which are well bunkered. I haven't played it since my last visit to Long Island to play in the Matt Burrows event at NGLA (2004?).  I know they hired a new super about 2 years ago and more changes were afoot.

[Matt_Ward]

Having played in the spring Havemeyer touney a few times I can attest to the qualities of Southward Ho !

Best part of the course is the stretch of holes beginning at the grand par-3 14th -- one of the more underrated holes in all of the metro area -- and the ones that follow you all the way to the house.

Generally, you encounter a headwind for all but one of the holes and whatever you have done with the first 13 will be determined by these closing holes.

[JMorgan]

I found this blurb from Oct. 1921 in a local paper's archive:

"Fifty golf enthusiasts had a meeting at Brightwaters last week to discuss a new site for a golf club, to take the place of the O-Co-Nee Golf Course, which has been sold for building purposes. One suggestion is that a committee purchase about 140 acres of the Bossert Estate. $200,000 has been offered for this property but it is believed that it could be bought for less money for a golf course. Devereux Emmet, a golf architect who was present, has estimated that it would cost about $35,000 to develop the property." 

The club now sits on the old Hyde property.

With the exception of a few tidbits, the trail goes dead until the course officially opens for play. 

And then it gets interesting.

I'm trying to determine if Emmet (and who else, besides Tilly) submitted a formal proposal, as other sources have denied that Emmet even bid on the job.

[JMorgan]

Matt, I agree.

Chip, thanks for providing background from the club house/local perspective. 

[ChipRoyce]

Having played in the spring Havemeyer touney a few times I can attest to the qualities of Southward Ho !

Best part of the course is the stretch of holes beginning at the grand par-3 14th -- one of the more underrated holes in all of the metro area -- and the ones that follow you all the way to the house.

Generally, you encounter a headwind for all but one of the holes and whatever you have done with the first 13 will be determined by these closing holes.

Matt;
Completely agree with the 14th, I happen to like the stretch of 12,13,14 the best. The Tree on 15's dogleg was always 'out of place' to us draw hitters, esp. on holes towards the boundaries of the property (which usually accompany large stands of trees limiting how much you can work the ball).

[ChipRoyce]

I found this blurb from Oct. 1921 in a local paper's archive:

"Fifty golf enthusiasts had a meeting at Brightwaters last week to discuss a new site for a golf club, to take the place of the O-Co-Nee Golf Course, which has been sold for building purposes. One suggestion is that a committee purchase about 140 acres of the Bossert Estate. $200,000 has been offered for this property but it is believed that it could be bought for less money for a golf course. Devereux Emmet, a golf architect who was present, has estimated that it would cost about $35,000 to develop the property." 

The club now sits on the old Hyde property.

With the exception of a few tidbits, the trail goes dead until the course officially opens for play. 

And then it gets interesting.

I'm trying to determine if Emmet (and who else, besides Tilly) submitted a formal proposal, as other sources have denied that Emmet even bid on the job.

JMorgan - Very interesting on 2 counts.

1) That there was an old "o-co-nee" course, presumably near the estates that now occupy the 'O-co-nee' Association lots.

2) Doesn't surprise me that Emmett could have also been contacted about the construction. One can presume that there was a lot of social cross-over between the Timber Point membership and the founders of Southward Ho and an appreciation for the best architects during that time. Not sure what the selection criteria was and how Tillie was chosen.

Might want to reach out to the club and see what remains of any type of archives on this. Please be sure to share any info that you find?

[Phil_the_Author]

The date given for the course at Southward Ho, 1923, is not when the course was opened, but rather when the Club was formed.

The course could not have been completely, or probably at all, open for play before late 1926 or more likely Spring 1926. I base this on three letters that Tilly sent to the Board of Directors of the Baltimore Cricket Club where Tilly was working on the building of the 5 Farms course in 1925. In two of the three letters he stated that if they needed him he could be reached ta the course he was working on in "Babylon on Long Island."

In the other letter Tilly mentioned a tractor that he had bought for and charged to the club for the project that they took exception to. In the letter Tilly said that they shouldn't worry about it and not to pay the bill as he would have it shipped to the "course in Babylon where I am working and can use it..."

[Matt_Ward]

One of the more unique holes at Southward Ho! is the par-4 8th -- a tough dog-leg right which features a fun two-tier green and a road that slots itself along the tiny space between the hedges that shield the property from public view on the left side.

I can remember plenty of interesting rulings when playing in the Havemeyer.

Just a fun hole because distance isn't the only element.

[JMorgan]

Chip, I'll let you know what I discover.  Thanks again.

Phil, thanks as always.  Are you certain that Tilly is referring to Southward Ho in those letters, and not to an NLE course?  Babylon and Bay Shore were two very distinct towns as early as the late 1800s. 

Matt,

[Matt_Ward]

Would be great for someone to post pics on the par-3 14th -- like I said before, a great long par-3 that is often forgotten when people speak about superb holes of this type on Long Island. Just love the green complex and how the bunkers fit so well there.

[Phil_the_Author]

Hi James...

Yes, Tilly was refering to the Southward Ho project...

[Sven Nilsen]

A bit of followup on the origins of Southward Ho.  The article suggests Emmet was the initial architect consulted prior to Tillinghast being brought in.

Dec. 7, 1921 Brooklyn Daily Eagle -