[Mark_Fine]

Bob,
Don't you think the only reason Phil hit a fairway wood was he was afraid he'd hit his driver off the golf course    The tee shot strategy on #18 at Riviera is to hit the ball as long and as accurately as you can ending up somewhere in the fairway.  You sure don't want to leave it on the left hillside like Stricker did (240 yards from the pin) - he hit driver off the tee.  You also don't want to block it right as you will have trees in your way for your second.  However, that does not mean there are not decisions to be made on the tee shot such as the shape and height of the shot, etc but it will in 99% of the cases be with a driver in hand.  Olympic has more variety/options in that regard as you need to decide what kind of second shot you want to have while you are standing on the tee.

I guess you can compare any two holes but these two are like comparing black and white as they are soooo different.  
Mark

[Kyle Henderson]

Olympic's 18th has a mostly visible landing area, but the fairway target is very small at certain distances. Direction and distance must be weighed carefully.
 

I humbly disagree with the "mostly visible landing area"

I'm taller than you...

But seriously,
I stated "mostly" visible because I recall taking a look from the forward tees (where I assume most members play?) and could see where my tee shot came to rest.

Riviera is much more blinderisticacularaneous off of the 18th tee.

[Bill_McBride]

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Wayne,

What is the difference between "precision"  and "obviously need accuracy as well?" With the length of the drive and the sloping of the fairway left to right, you had better not cut it too close as Couples did at 18 on Sunday. I always felt that the trees on the right play a very important role in making the 18th such a formidable hole. One is basically aiming left with a fade, or cut, and tempting the fates with leaving the ball hung out to dry on the Kikuyu.

Call me an ex-homer....Riviera

Bob

Bob, did Freddy's second shot hit one of the trees?  We were in an airport lounge in Dallas at that time and the sound was turned down low, so I couldn't tell if he shanked it, laid the the sod over it, or hit a tree.  He sure was a long way away in two!

[Kalen Braley]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

[ed_getka]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

Kalen,
   The point is that Sean asked a question about 2 holes he had never seen before, so how would he know that the holes are so dissimilar?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Wayne,

What is the difference between "precision"  and "obviously need accuracy as well?" With the length of the drive and the sloping of the fairway left to right, you had better not cut it too close as Couples did at 18 on Sunday. I always felt that the trees on the right play a very important role in making the 18th such a formidable hole. One is basically aiming left with a fade, or cut, and tempting the fates with leaving the ball hung out to dry on the Kikuyu.

Call me an ex-homer....Riviera

Bob

Sorry about the time lapse... had to attend to the twins.  and work... and the wife...  Anyway, i crafted a nice detailed response to this, and by the time I finished, my session timed-out and I lost it.  Needless to say can't remember what I wrote, except that I used a definition from that arbiter of truth - Wikipedia - that discusses the difference between Accuracy and Precision.  Here's a "soundbite"

"if a large number of arrows are shot, precision would be the size of the arrow cluster. (When only one arrow is shot, precision is the size of the cluster one would expect if this were repeated many times under the same conditions.) When all arrows are grouped tightly together, the cluster is considered precise since they all struck close to the same spot, if not necessarily near the bullseye. The measurements are precise, though not necessarily accurate".

What does that mean?  Not sure, and I think it actually completely shoots holes in my original point, so I'll try and incorporate it into my "defense".

Riviera's 18th requires accuracy in so far that, while being in the fairway is seriously preferable, it must be a good distance off the tee in order to have a real shot with a mid- to long-iron .  Since, the green is open in the front, one could theoretically run the approach in (if the kikuyu allows).  If one can't get home in two, there are options for a decent third shot around the front of the green, as we witnessed by Steve Stricker who couldn't get hom in two.  He was not accurate (nor precise), but he didn't need to be on the approach either.  I just think the key here is length, especially off the tee, which is the more important attribute for this hole.

Olympic's 18th requires precision for both the tee shot and approach, in so far that one MUST find the fairway, pref. the left side and at the bottom of the hill or on the up-slope, to be able to control the approach with anything from an 8I to a W to a very well-guarded green.  There are no run-up options... no bail-out options, so if you don't hit the FW, you're pretty much toast... especially if you end up on the right side.  Plus, with the re-reconfigured green, being below the hole is also going to be requirement... IMO. 

Hopefully this makes sense?  Eitherway both are fantastic holes, and others like Kalen are right... they're really more different than they are alike to be able to say which is the better. 

[Bob_Huntley]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

Kalen,
   The point is that Sean asked a question about 2 holes he had never seen before, so how would he know that the holes are so dissimilar?

Ed,

As always, with your medical training and competence, you ask the right questions with succinctness.

We miss you back here on the wrong coast, let us know when we can get you in a Wolf game.

Bob

[Kyle Henderson]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

People compare Tobacco Road with The Old Course with Isleworth etc.

Heck, any ranking of golf courses is essentially a comparison between hundreds of apples, grenade launchers, and mirken balls. All artistic debates come downo personal preferences.

Why not compare the virtues of short holes with long holes, etc.? It's why I log on.

[rjsimper]

Are the contours on the 18th green at Riviera mostly unchanged?  Seems that the philosophy (executed very well) is to challenge you to make it to the green but once there the heavy lifting is done.

18 at Olympic, the fun has only begun once you make it to the green (and that is a green that has been significantly altered over the years)

[Bob_Huntley]

Ryan,

I haven't played Riviera more than two or three times since I moved back to Carmel in 1975, but the green I used to play had much subtlety. If you have any tapes of the tournament over the years, see how many short putts were missed in the heat of the battle.

Bob

[Jed Peters]

We miss you back here on the wrong coast, let us know when we can get you in a Wolf game.

Bob

You play this game "Wolf"? I thought it was called "Pig"?

[Matt_Ward]

Just wanted to say that the 18th at Riviera -- ditto the whole course -- is simply great stuff indeed. To create the routing that Thomas did in the canyon-setting there is clear testament to the skills of the architect.

Ditto the bunkering styles and variety of green shapes, etc, etc.

I echo what Bob H said about the contours of the 18th green. Try missing your approach shot to the left of the green and see the kind of pronoucned left-to-right movement you get when your shot lands on the green.

One further thing -- kudos to the PGA Tour for setting up Riviera so that players can play offensive play without being subjected to the inane set-ups often found at so many major events. Interesting to note Lefty eagled the 1st hole three times but the course plucked a few feathers from him on Sunday before he righted the ship. Great courses will give up low rounds but not hand them out like candy unless the execution is consistently supplied.

Mike C said it well -- hard to deny the utter greatness of the place. Would love to see a US Open played there but the USGA (unless Mike Davis could change the mindset) would feel compelled to bastardize the qualities of the course.

p.s. I love the finale at Lake at Olympic but ask yourself this -- what is the better short par-4 hole -- the 18th at Lake or the 10th at Riviera? The latter wins in a walk in my mind.

[Mike Benham]

p.s. I love the finale at Lake at Olympic but ask yourself this -- what is the better short par-4 hole -- the 18th at Lake or the 10th at Riviera? The latter wins in a walk in my mind.

In regards to the 10th at Riviera, would it still be a great hole if it was #18 in the routing? 

Or would it be better than great?  Or does its current location in the routing make it what it is?

If it was 18, do you think the strategy of play by the Pro's change?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike B:

I think the reputation of the 10th at Riv would be even more so if it was the final hole. No doubt the do-or-die thinking would make the "pull the trigger" impulse something to really dwell upon before launching.

Yes, the strategic implications would change but the inherent qualities of the hole would still shine brightly.

In regards to its location on the course -- I like it for the fact that a back nine surge can start there - with an eagle possibility being a remote, but possible outcome at both the 10th and 11th holes.

[Mike Benham]

Matt - my thoughts are similar whereas Olympic's 18th would not play any differently if it was in a different spot in the routing of the course.

[ed_getka]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

Kalen,
   The point is that Sean asked a question about 2 holes he had never seen before, so how would he know that the holes are so dissimilar?

Ed,

As always, with your medical training and competence, you ask the right questions with succinctness.

We miss you back here on the wrong coast, let us know when we can get you in a Wolf game.

Bob

Thanks Bob I look forward to it, hopefully this summer.

[Kalen Braley]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

Kalen,
   The point is that Sean asked a question about 2 holes he had never seen before, so how would he know that the holes are so dissimilar?

Ed,

I should clarify.  I'm don't understand why this thread has lasted so long.  Seems like the 1st few responses should have been "they have nothing in common" and that would have been the end of it.  Certainly it was a fair question, just baffled that comparisons keep on piling up. 

[Phil Benedict]

One problem with the 18th at Olympic is that everyone lays up to the same area in tournament play, so the chance of ending up in a divot is unusually high.  Isn't that a weakness which reflects the lack of meaningful options off the tee?

[Kevin_Reilly]

One problem with the 18th at Olympic is that everyone lays up to the same area in tournament play, so the chance of ending up in a divot is unusually high.  Isn't that a weakness which reflects the lack of meaningful options off the tee?

One might think that the above would be a problem, but I can't recall it ever being an issue during Olympic's tournament history.  Payne Stewart's problem with a sand-filled divot occurred on the 12th hole.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

One problem with the 18th at Olympic is that everyone lays up to the same area in tournament play, so the chance of ending up in a divot is unusually high.  Isn't that a weakness which reflects the lack of meaningful options off the tee?

i.e. precision.  thanks. 

[ed_getka]

I don't understand the point of this thread.  This is like comparing apples to grenade launchers, these holes seem that much dis-similiar. Even though I've never played either, other than a ampitheathre and a clubhouse location I'm not seeing whats to compare here?  Seems like it comes down to personal preferences at the end of the day.

Kalen,
   The point is that Sean asked a question about 2 holes he had never seen before, so how would he know that the holes are so dissimilar?

Ed,

I should clarify.  I'm don't understand why this thread has lasted so long.  Seems like the 1st few responses should have been "they have nothing in common" and that would have been the end of it.  Certainly it was a fair question, just baffled that comparisons keep on piling up. 

Kalen,
   No worries, the responses may have ended sooner if someone would have just answered Sean's question and given him some information. We all have a tendency to go off on tangents at times.

[John Handley]

I gotta be honest, I don't think the 18th at Olympic is a great Tournament finishing hole.  Maybe to the average golfer, it is a daunting task to hit the fairway, hit the green and negotiate the treacherous green.  For the greatest pros in the world, hitting the fairway with a hybrid or 2/3 iron is no big deal.  Then hitting the green with a PW/9i is not difficult.  So I think the biggest challenge the pros will have is the green and how fast they make the greens.  I still remember watching Payne Stewart stew after watching his putt roll down the slope.  To me, that's not exciting golf. 

As a finishing hole, I think Riviera's is a much tougher challenge and honestly, I like the 18th at Augusta.

[Jim Nugent]

One problem with the 18th at Olympic is that everyone lays up to the same area in tournament play, so the chance of ending up in a divot is unusually high.  

Arnie avoided that problem in the 4th round in 1966, by pull/hooking his drive into the deep rough.  Made an amazing par from there, including two putting from about 40 or so feet above the hole. 

Do any long hitters these days take driver, and try to get close to the green?  Or is that a poor play? 

I'm also curious to know if there have been any holes-in-one on #7 at Olympic. 

[Rich Goodale]

Jim

I'm not being completely responsive, but wouldn't a hole like 7 at OC (and 10 at Riviera) be a great finishing hole for a Major, not only for the options they offer, but also because they might force the leading players to wait on the tee (as the greens are driveable)?  Adding even just a little bit more to the choke factor would not be a bad thing, would it?

Rich

[Bill_McBride]

I gotta be honest, I don't think the 18th at Olympic is a great Tournament finishing hole.  Maybe to the average golfer, it is a daunting task to hit the fairway, hit the green and negotiate the treacherous green.  For the greatest pros in the world, hitting the fairway with a hybrid or 2/3 iron is no big deal.  Then hitting the green with a PW/9i is not difficult.  So I think the biggest challenge the pros will have is the green and how fast they make the greens.  I still remember watching Payne Stewart stew after watching his putt roll down the slope.  To me, that's not exciting golf. 

As a finishing hole, I think Riviera's is a much tougher challenge and honestly, I like the 18th at Augusta.

John, ask Hogan and Palmer how easy the 18th is.  Both hooked into the hay and wound up tied, lost in playoffs.  That looks like a big lay up target out there, but under tournament pressure, OMG.

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