Better finishing hole Olympic Club(Lake) vs. Riviera CC

[igrowgrass]

Watching the final round of the Northern Trust Open got me thinking.  Which is the better finishing hole.  I have played neither hole.  They seem similar in design, but different in topography.  So which is the better hole?

[Tim Gavrich]

If I remember correctly, the 18th at Olympic is in the 350 yard range, while the finisher at Riviera is more like 475.  Nonetheless, they would both appear to be half-par holes--Olympic's being more of a 3.5 while Riviera's is more of a 4.5.

[Kevin_Reilly]

They seem similar in design

What similarities do you see?

[Deucie Bies]

The biggest similarity that I see is that the clubhouses sit high above and to the left of the 18th greens!

[Bob_Huntley]

Watching the final round of the Northern Trust Open got me thinking.  Which is the better finishing hole.  I have played neither hole.  They seem similar in design, but different in topography.  So which is the better hole?

Sean,

If you take away the USGA's pin positions on the Lake's 18th,  I think both holes require a good deal of thought. However, Riviera's 18th is much harder, certainly when you consider that the longest driver in the field is taking a seven iron at Riviera  and quite possibly a nine iron or wedge at Lakeside. I was there many years ago when winner Dave Stockton hit a fairway wood to the green.

Riviera wins by a mile.


Bob

Having plyaed there for a few years the Blue Gums on the right of the fairway have a

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
There is no similarity at all between the holes to try to compare them. 
Mark

[J_ Crisham]

Bob,  I agree totally. The 18th at Olympic is a hybrid -wedge at best nowadays for even average amateur players. The 18th at Riviera would be unreachable for me. The tour players would probably be able to go at the green at Olympic and being in the front bunker might not be that  bad. Both great holes but Riviera is much harder. I do think that Olympic is a harder course overall. Very tight driving course-only played it once but great memories. As I recall it only had very few fairway bunkers but had very tilted fairways.      Wish you well,  Jack

[James Bennett]

Olympic Lake #18 is a great hole.  One to look forward to.

Riviera #18 is a great 18th hole.  It is immensely challenging, so much so that for the average player it is a 3-shot hole.  The uphill climb is significant (as it is at Olympic Lake, but different).

Riviera #18 is such a simple green (comparatively) with no bunkering.  Olympic Lake is tightly bunkered (as you would expect for such a length hole).  Both are smallish greens, with Olympic Lake having the greater undulations  The back left pin was a doozy.

(And the ball plugged in the face under the lip of the Olympic Lake #18 right-hand bunker was a 'sinister' challenge, wasn't it Kevin )

James B

[Craig Sweet]

I thought this thread was Best FISHING HOLE Olympic Lake....but I see it has nothing to do with fishing...sorry.

[Mike_Cirba]

I've played both, and like each a great deal.

I agree with Mr. Huntley.

The 18th at Olympic Lake is a superb golf hole

The 18th at Riviera is one of the top 10 finishing holes on the planet,and one of the best 5, or 3 in the United States.

Oftimes folks here like to chime in on how television tends to flatten photography, and generally use ANGC as a prime example, usually concluding that unless one walks those primordial grounds, one can't have a real understanding blah, blah, blah...

I still recall playing Riviera with some great friends, including one who I haven't heard from in way, way, way too long, and we all were simply astounded by the 2nd hole.

I'm a great fan of Merion, and Pine Valley, and NGLA, and Shinnecock, and almost all of the wondrous and wonderful historic course that dot the northeastern landscape, but I'm betting that Tom Paul will agree with me when I say that Riviera is probably in the top 5 courses in the country.

More than that, television is deceptive and deceiving, and the boldness of the features of Riviera are lost to television, and minimized to folks who only see what's evident throught that medium.

In person, the drive on 18 at Riviera looks like trying to carry the tidal wave that swept away islands in "Krakatoa; East of Java", and once the player actually successfully negoitates that awesome challenge, they are left with an uphill approach into a psuedo-Greek amphitheatre of intensity that instantly reminds one of everyone who has walked those hallowed alleys and who have met triumph and defeat with equal courage and nerve-wracking anxiety.

I can't think of a better 18th hole, frankly.

[Bob_Huntley]

Michael,

I cannot say that I agree with everything you say,  but in this post you state the case for the 18th at Riviera with great eloquence. When the chips are down you can count on a couple of contenders to make some silly mistakes.

I also agree with you on the second hole. Few people realize the strength of the Kikuyu grass surounding that green, it is brutal.

Bob

[James Bennett]

Mike

Riviera has a wonderful routing, with three different and excellent holes returning to the clubhouse (#2, #9 and #18).  Any of these three would make a fine #18 hole on any other course.

However, if either #9 or #2 were to be Riviera's finishing hole, then where would you put #18 in that routing - as a #15 hole (followed by #10, # 11 and then #2) or perhaps as a mid-round hole?  Neither of these work in my mind.  As good as #2 and #9 are, I can't imagine any hole being routed after #18.  It is a culmination of the round, an exclamation point!

Merion East has some similar qualities.

James B

[Ross Waldorf]

I've never had the pleasure of playing Olympic, but I did get around Riviera once and echo Mike Cirba's thoughts almost in their entirety. I tend to keep my posts to a minimum, but the 18th at Riv just inspires one to say something. I loved the "tidal wave" comment. Really, if you haven't had the chance to see that tee shot in person, it's really something. The hill is way more intimidating and steep than it looks on television. And watching the ball fly over the brow of the hill is one of those great golf experiences. The shot actually reminds me a bit of the 9th at Pacific Dunes, which is another favorite of mine. Then you get to walk up there and hit into the green below the clubhouse and think about Ben Hogan . . . it's a great, great hole.

[ed_getka]

Sean,
    Riviera is the tougher and I would say better finishing hole although I haven't played either enough to make that case definitively.
   From an overhead view the holes may appear similar, but they are quite different at ground level. The tee shot at Olympic drops downhill into a deep bowl essentially. I'm guessing it is 50-75 feet below the tee. Then you are faced with an uphill approach with a short iron to mid-iron after having teed off with a long iron to hybrid. The green is tilted significantly toward you and you are coming in over bunkering to a tightly bunkered small green. You know that being above the hole is death so you try to stay below the hole at all costs which brings the front bunkers into play. Your uphill approach is gaining back all or most of the drop you had off the tee. Not to mention that if you are too conservative off the tee you will likely still be on a downslope.
     On the other hand the tee shot at Riviera is the opposite. You are hitting a tee shot that has to have more carry than the one at Olympic and it is uphill at least 30 feet I would estimate, certainly uphill enough that it is daunting for a low-ball golfer like me. Assuming you make the fairway you will be a long way from the green which is quite small and you are still going moderately uphill. If you have ended up on the right side of the fairway you will have trees to try to get your ball around to get to the green. If you end up in the rough around the green you will have a chip/pitch that even the pros can't handle. I would think 2 putting on this green might be a tad easier in general, but as I stated I haven't played either hole enough to know for sure.
   

[Rich Goodale]

I haven't played Riviera, but have never been enamoured of the hole in numerous viewings on television.  It's a brute, to be sure, but with no other redeeming characteristics that I can see.

Olympic 18, on the other hand has everything.  Risk/reward off the tee.  A butt-clenching 2nd shot, knowing that you can get a 3 or a 6, depending on the quality of your planning and execution.  A world-class green.

This thread should be a master-class in the relative values of par 4.5 and 3.5 "par" 4 holes as finishing holes.  To me, the latter win by miles.

Rich

PS--and don't get me going on kikuyu(sic)!  You might as well "seed" the rough with an Astroturf-Brillo hybrid.......

[PCCraig]

I would make the case that Olympic's short second shot to a tiny green is more interesting in a tournament than the brute par-4 hole at Riviera. I say this because while someone may loose the tournament with a bogey at Riviera, someone can WIN the tournament at Olympic with a good wedge/short iron shot.

To me that is more exciting.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

RE: Riviera
Perhaps Bob Huntley can answer this.  Before kikuyu took complete control, was it possible to hit up on the left hillside and have your ball roll onto the green on 18.  I remember playing there in 1973 and was told I could bail out right on #2 and it would roll down onto the green.  I am thinking that was an intended consequence of the design.  It would be fun to watch a ball roll like that on the finishing hole.  While the 18th is a beauty at Riv, it has always troubled me a bit about the back left hole placement.  It is not really accessible.  The only way I could get close was a full sand wedge on my 3rd shot.  I think Sabbatini got the closest yesterday, about 15 feet.
And while we are talking about bouncing the ball off the hill, is this possible at Olympic?

[Joel_Stewart]

nd while we are talking about bouncing the ball off the hill, is this possible at Olympic?

Generally not.  You have bunker left and right.  There is a very small area past the bunker on the right that it may bounce onto the green but its very small and anyone hitting there has missed it badly.  The rough around the green has been fairly long over the last few years so that has played into some shots.  Balls going long face a very steep down hill shot that is almost impossible.

The two holes in question are very different.  About the only things they have in common is they are both in California and they both have amphitheatre type surrounds around the green with the clubhouse behind.  One is uphill and the other down and then up.  One is long and the other short.  One is a tough par the other is an easy par.  Difficult to compare these differences.

[Bob_Huntley]

RE: Riviera
Perhaps Bob Huntley can answer this.  Before kikuyu took complete control, was it possible to hit up on the left hillside and have your ball roll onto the green on 18.  I remember playing there in 1973 and was told I could bail out right on #2 and it would roll down onto the green.  I am thinking that was an intended consequence of the design.  It would be fun to watch a ball roll like that on the finishing hole.  While the 18th is a beauty at Riv, it has always troubled me a bit about the back left hole placement.  It is not really accessible.  The only way I could get close was a full sand wedge on my 3rd shot.  I think Sabbatini got the closest yesterday, about 15 feet.
And while we are talking about bouncing the ball off the hill, is this possible at Olympic?

Lynn,

I saw it happen once or twice but on the whole, no way.

Bob

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

[Bob_Huntley]

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Olympic's is about precision.  Need to hit the fairway, pref. left side, to be able to hit and hold the green (which after the restoration will have some teeth put back into it.).

Riviera's is about power (obviously need accuracy as well).  Need to hit a deep ball in order to have a mid- to long iron (or even FW) into the green.  The green is open in front allowing for a run-up... if the turf were something other than velcro.

Both are among the best finishing holes I've played (the number of which pales in comparison to others here), so it's like splitting hairs.  Which do I like?  Call me a homer... Olympic.

Wayne,

What is the difference between "precision"  and "obviously need accuracy as well?" With the length of the drive and the sloping of the fairway left to right, you had better not cut it too close as Couples did at 18 on Sunday. I always felt that the trees on the right play a very important role in making the 18th such a formidable hole. One is basically aiming left with a fade, or cut, and tempting the fates with leaving the ball hung out to dry on the Kikuyu.

Call me an ex-homer....Riviera

Bob

[Carl Nichols]

Are there any decisions to be made on the tee shot at Riviera?  I've only played Olympic, but it seems one thing in Olympic's favor is that you have to make a decision off the tee; at Riviera, you know what you have to do -- bomb a drive.

[Kyle Henderson]

Tee shots:
Riviera's 18th is blind and  uphill, but with enough visual cues for members to figure out their ideal line. The left to right slope of the fairway must be considered, as shots that drift too far right will force a fade around trees for the approach. One must commit and hit a solid driver (unless you can pound a 3-wood like Mickelson).

Olympic's 18th has a mostly visible landing area, but the fairway target is very small at certain distances. Direction and distance must be weighed carefully.

Approach shot:
Riv's approach will be a lay up if you miss the fairway or a long iron/wood from a left to right sloping fairway (good luck from the kikuyu rough). Less possibilities and therefore less fun over repeat plays for me compared with Olympic, but still a fun approach shot to pull off.

I prefer Olympic's approach mainly because it will be from a variety of lies (up or down hill, left or right slope) depending on where you land. The wind will generally hurt, and the green is elevated relative to the landing zone,  which makes this short-iron to shot very tricky.

Around the greens:

Riviera offer some interesting shots for those that tug their approach to the surrounding bowl, long and left. Right side misses are pretty straight forward.

Olympic's finisher presents a number of challenging recovery shots. It also features a grassy bowl around the back, but the green slopes away toward the front more severly. There are also some tricky bunkers and hollows around the periphery. Again, a few more possibilities = more fun over repeat plays.

Riviera's 18th is a stern test and loads of fun. Certainly, I think's Riv is the superior course overall, but I have to give the nod to the closer at Olympic's Lake course in this contest.


 

[Bob_Huntley]

Are there any decisions to be made on the tee shot at Riviera?  I've only played Olympic, but it seems one thing in Olympic's favor is that you have to make a decision off the tee; at Riviera, you know what you have to do -- bomb a drive.

Carl,

Phil did not bomb a drive, I believe he hit a fairway wood and was miles behind Couples.

Bob

[Mike Benham]

Olympic's 18th has a mostly visible landing area, but the fairway target is very small at certain distances. Direction and distance must be weighed carefully.
 

I humbly disagree with the "mostly visible landing area"