Riviera No. 10

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Just read the Marzolf interview.  Pretty funny.  He is going to restore the 8th double fairway as Thomas intended?  What was he doing the first time a few years back?  He ruined it then, why would one think he would get it right this time.  Until they place the tee in the middle of the two fairways, it will not be restored, and to do that it will have to go back as a 390 yard hole.  You know that is not going to happen.
Then he talks about the 7th as his favorite.  Does he know the fairway contour is nothing like the original Thomas design?  I think not.

[Lou_Duran]

Ouch!  Not to be argumentative Lynn, but do you really mean "thoughtful" or one that just happens to jive more with your way of thinking?  Just teasing.

But now that you mention it, I do agree with you, Riv has probably one of the top routings I've seen, perhaps the best.  And I mean much more than the proximity of tees to greens, but the actual progression of holes and the varying shots each require.

Those who are concerned about Fazio and Jones working on classical golf courses might be able to rest more at ease.  Unlike Inverness where the modernizers left the existing course to site three new holes on an adjacent tract, Riv, LACC, and many revered courses are land-locked so the routings can't be easily altered.  Unlike matrimonial vows, in most cases (but perhaps not in CA with the CCC) what man has done can be undoned.      

[George Pazin]

Somebody wrote a really interesting book about 15 years ago that dissected the LA Open through Davis Love III's eyes, back in the year he and Freddie went to a playoff (which Freddie won). I think maybe that was in 92.

What struck me at the time was how much DLIII, one of the longest hitters on Tour, maybe the longest at that time, struggled with how to play the 10th each day of the tournament. I think he even had a rules incident one day, where someone claimed he grounded his club in a hazard, the barranca (still can't figure out where that is on the tube).

The book, which I think was called something like Through The Green or Driving The Green or something like that, was a very interesting read, I highly recommend it (even if I can't remember the exact title).

Looking at the hole now, it seems as though most of the debate is over for the big guys - they all seem to go for it, but that the debate is now stronger for the lesser player, who realistically shouldn't have even been thinking about it then, but maybe should now. One of the few holes where technology may assist the average player in a better way.

I'll never forget when a fellow named Tim Jackson came on here and posted that it was simply a driver- 2 putt birdie hole for him. Prove positive that most can't divorce their own play from evaluation, and that a one time play is not all that much of a learning opportunity...

[Tom Huckaby]

George:

When I played the hole several times as a weakling high schooler (not much removed from gutties and hickory)... it was always a driver, if only because that meant 200 yards more or less and I wanted to get where I could hit a lofted club.  I remember this well.  So zero strategic choice.

I have to believe if I played the hole as the stud I have become (equipment having NOTHING to do with this of course) the temptation to go for the green would be huge.  Oh I'd hear the words of wise Mr. Huntley in my right ear, but the devil in the left would be saying "freakin' Kavanaugh drove it, why can't you you pissant?"

Thus it would be a very fun choice between what's right and what's gloriously possible.  And it's all because I have become such a stud.

Read that to mean, 280 with a good roll, firm conditions, helping wind is at least POSSIBLE.

As for the big guys, did anyone track this over the 4 days?  What were the results in terms of going for it / laying up?  I have to believe MOST go for it.. but it impressed me that last group of the day, Freddie Couples laid up.

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Bob, I've never played Sawgrass.  I don't like what I see on TV, though.  For all the reasons you gave.  Amazes me that George Peper rated it one of the four best par 3's in the world.  

[Bill_McBride]

As for the big guys, did anyone track this over the 4 days?  What were the results in terms of going for it / laying up?  I have to believe MOST go for it.. but it impressed me that last group of the day, Freddie Couples laid up.

TH

Fred laid up with an iron on Saturday too, surprisingly to the right side of the fairway.  I have to think he pushed his iron shot.  Being the golf god he is, he hit a SW that spun to a stop 10' short even into the falling away slope, just missed birdie.

I thought, from the groups I saw play the hole on Saturday during an hour's viewing, that maybe half hit driver and the other half laid up with long iron or FW wood.  Nobody laid up left of the front bunkers, all flew over those more straight at the green or a bit to the left.

The tightly mown rear bank saw some drivers down that hill with difficult pitches back up.  If the grass was thicker there and drives stayed closer to the green, you might see more driver tee shots, so I think the mowing was a good idea.

The few who made bogey were just pissed. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Thanks, Bill.

That brings up another thought though... on Sunday I saw a few guys who ought to have been DEAD not exactly have it work out that way... maybe are these guys all so damn great around the green it doesn't matter much where they leave it?  Oh I'm sure Freddie wasn't happy about laying up to the right - yeah, must have hit a bad tee shot - but still if he can get it to 10' from there, well... what the hell does angle matter?

I do get playing percentages.  Still.. they do play a different game.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Thanks, Bill.

That brings up another thought though... on Sunday I saw a few guys who ought to have been DEAD not exactly have it work out that way... maybe are these guys all so damn great around the green it doesn't matter much where they leave it?  Oh I'm sure Freddie wasn't happy about laying up to the right - yeah, must have hit a bad tee shot - but still if he can get it to 10' from there, well... what the hell does angle matter?

I do get playing percentages.  Still.. they do play a different game.

TH

With the kikuyu it's all about distance control.  And that's where the modern pro is at his best.  They do a great job of scrambling, don't they?

[Tom Huckaby]

They most surely do.  It's just cool to have a hole like this to test them.

TH

[Bill_McBride]

They most surely do.  It's just cool to have a hole like this to test them.

TH

I loved standing off to the left of the green, watching the tee shots land and then having a close range view of the struggles that followed.  Birdies were not easy to come by.  I remembered Jim Murray's famous quote ("...shameless harlot....") and grinned!   

I really liked the holes along the barranca - #12, #13, #8 - wouldn't it be sweet if that were a sandy wash again?

[Matthew Petersen]

The US Am had a 13-for-8 playoff this morning, starting on #10. What a hole to stew about overnight!


Interesting results for how different guys attacked it. The hole was toward the back left of the green.


7 attempted to drive up or near the green: 3 birdies, 1 par, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.14)


6 laid back off the tee to leave a wedge in: 1 birdie, 2 pars, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.5)


Small sample size, obviously, but it is interesting. Certainly, going for the green can put you in a position where par is very difficult - the players who tried to drive the green and missed left or long left struggled. One drew a good lie and hit a fantastic chip and made birdie, but many of the others were not even able to get their second shot on the green.


On the other hand, laying up doesn't end the adventure. One player hit an excellent wedge and made birdie but several missed with their wedges and struggled. This was even true of a player in the last group who knew par would, at worst, get him to the next playoff hole, but instead of playing a safe wedge shot to the wide middle portion of the green and trying to 2 putt, went at the narrow target, dumped it into a buried lie in the front bunker and played his next 3 shots from the sand before making double.


I think this shows the real excellence of the hole: No matter how you choose to play it, the hole demands you execute excellent shots.

[Doug Wright]

On the other hand, laying up doesn't end the adventure. One player hit an excellent wedge and made birdie but several missed with their wedges and struggled. This was even true of a player in the last group who knew par would, at worst, get him to the next playoff hole, but instead of playing a safe wedge shot to the wide middle portion of the green and trying to 2 putt, went at the narrow target, dumped it into a buried lie in the front bunker and played his next 3 shots from the sand before making double.

Really a great playoff hole that required both thought and execution under big-time pressure. As I watched Scottie Scheffler, a very good player who was low amateur at the 2017 US Open, make the mistakes highlighted above to lose out, I couldn't help but think of Jason Day's debacle last weekend. Scheffler had 90 yards from a very bad angle short and right. Poor decision to go at the flag in the tiny back portion of the green but who am I to judge...that is the beauty of Riviera #10....

[George Pazin]

The US Am had a 13-for-8 playoff this morning, starting on #10. What a hole to stew about overnight!


Interesting results for how different guys attacked it. The hole was toward the back left of the green.


7 attempted to drive up or near the green: 3 birdies, 1 par, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.14)


6 laid back off the tee to leave a wedge in: 1 birdie, 2 pars, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.5)


Small sample size, obviously, but it is interesting. Certainly, going for the green can put you in a position where par is very difficult - the players who tried to drive the green and missed left or long left struggled. One drew a good lie and hit a fantastic chip and made birdie, but many of the others were not even able to get their second shot on the green.


On the other hand, laying up doesn't end the adventure. One player hit an excellent wedge and made birdie but several missed with their wedges and struggled. This was even true of a player in the last group who knew par would, at worst, get him to the next playoff hole, but instead of playing a safe wedge shot to the wide middle portion of the green and trying to 2 putt, went at the narrow target, dumped it into a buried lie in the front bunker and played his next 3 shots from the sand before making double.


I think this shows the real excellence of the hole: No matter how you choose to play it, the hole demands you execute excellent shots.

Thanks for that, Matthew. A very very wise former poster told me back in 2003 that the most exciting moment of the US Am is typically the Wednesday morning playoff. I got to witness it at Oakmont that year, and he was not wrong. 10-11-12-13 and done, IIRC. Happy to see the tradition continue!

[Tim Fenchel]

Happened to see Graham Delaet's twitter post last night.


To paraphrase he said "Riviera is one of this favorite course on tour but #10 might be his least favorite hole on tour."


The guy is entitled to his opinion but I disagree.  I wonder, with all the courses they play and see around the world, how many touring pro's actually have an eye and appreciation for good architecture.

[BHoover]

Happened to see Graham Delaet's twitter post last night.


To paraphrase he said "Riviera is one of this favorite course on tour but #10 might be his least favorite hole on tour."


The guy is entitled to his opinion but I disagree.  I wonder, with all the courses they play and see around the world, how many touring pro's actually have an eye and appreciation for good architecture.

With a few exceptions, they are out in Tour to win tournaments and make a living. That means focusing on putting up a score, not focusing on architecture.

[Kalen Braley]

Not sure if anyone was watching yesterday.


The 10th hole was the decider in the US AM championship match as the 37th hole.  The leader was 2 up and dormie on the 17th tee, and his competitor proceeded to eagle 17 and birdie 18 to square the match.  He was so rattled by that, he butchered the 10th hole and missed his bogey putt to lose.


Shot 1 - Tee ball missed left behind the trees and bushes
Shot 2 - Chipped into bunker in front of the green
Shot 3 - Blasted out over the green into the back bunker
shot 4 - Blasted out to about 15 feet
Shot 5 - Missed the bogey putt as his opponent had about 15 feet for bridie and conceded to lose the US Am...


Crazy stuff....


P.S.  Silver lining, still gets to go to the Masters...

[Josh Tarble]

The US Am had a 13-for-8 playoff this morning, starting on #10. What a hole to stew about overnight!


Interesting results for how different guys attacked it. The hole was toward the back left of the green.


7 attempted to drive up or near the green: 3 birdies, 1 par, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.14)


6 laid back off the tee to leave a wedge in: 1 birdie, 2 pars, 2 bogies, 1 double (SA: 4.5)


Small sample size, obviously, but it is interesting. Certainly, going for the green can put you in a position where par is very difficult - the players who tried to drive the green and missed left or long left struggled. One drew a good lie and hit a fantastic chip and made birdie, but many of the others were not even able to get their second shot on the green.


On the other hand, laying up doesn't end the adventure. One player hit an excellent wedge and made birdie but several missed with their wedges and struggled. This was even true of a player in the last group who knew par would, at worst, get him to the next playoff hole, but instead of playing a safe wedge shot to the wide middle portion of the green and trying to 2 putt, went at the narrow target, dumped it into a buried lie in the front bunker and played his next 3 shots from the sand before making double.


I think this shows the real excellence of the hole: No matter how you choose to play it, the hole demands you execute excellent shots.

I thought Azinger and Faxon had a really good discussion on the 10th.  I'm paraphrasing, but basically it was "most players are deciding to go for it because it only requires one excellent shot, while laying up requires two excellent shots"