[Tom Huckaby]

Keeping in mind the famous (for this forum) tale of Kavanaugh driving the green and then gagging on his eagle putt... I have to believe that lots of people can drive the green, depending on conditions and choice of tee, of course.  So adding that as a very tempting choice makes it a great hole for strategic choices to be required, as I see it.

The demands on execution just up the ante on the strategic choices.

And Bill, there is a Santa Claus.  But even he has to keep the North Pole Toy Factory machinery clean, well-oiled and maintained... with backups available for the inevitable breakdowns.  Look at 10 green(s) as an analagous example.

 

[Dan Kelly]

Dan,
Define strategic.  I thought all shots had to be executed.

My point is that no matter where you hit your tee shot (even in the optimal driving spot), the hole is designed so exquisitely that you really have to concentrate and "execute" the shot to make birdie or par.

I don't know how to define "strategic." I'll leave that to the architecture scholars -- of which I'm assuredly not one.

But my half-formed understanding of "strategic" made me think that on a "strategic" par-4, (a) there wouldn't BE a single, optimal driving spot, but multiple potentially optimal driving spots, depending on one's "strategy" in playing the hole -- and that from those multiple potentially optimal driving spots, (b) one could execute optimal approach shots of various sorts.

A green that will accept  ONLY wedge shots, as you described, would strike me as non-strategic in the extreme.

[Joel_Stewart]

I just read that Mickelson today hit driver 40 yards OVER the green.  Is this possible???

[C. Squier]

Dan,
Define strategic.  I thought all shots had to be executed.

My point is that no matter where you hit your tee shot (even in the optimal driving spot), the hole is designed so exquisitely that you really have to concentrate and "execute" the shot to make birdie or par.

I don't know how to define "strategic." I'll leave that to the architecture scholars -- of which I'm assuredly not one.

But my half-formed understanding of "strategic" made me think that on a "strategic" par-4, (a) there wouldn't BE a single, optimal driving spot, but multiple potentially optimal driving spots, depending on one's "strategy" in playing the hole -- and that from those multiple potentially optimal driving spots, (b) one could execute optimal approach shots of various sorts.

A green that will accept  ONLY wedge shots, as you described, would strike me as non-strategic in the extreme.

At 300 yards from the tee, I can't imagine anyone hitting anything more than a full wedge, no matter what route they take.  

The 2nd shot is difficult.  But you get to pick your poison, from potentially driving the green to having a full wedge.  The tee shot sets you up to play to whatever your short game strength is.  For instance, I'd rather have a 70 yard 3/4 sand wedge than a full wedge.  Still a darn hard 70 yard shot on the 10th for me, but compared to the alternatives, it was my best shot at making 3.  But I had ALL options available to me from the start of the hole....up to the golfer to pick their poison.  To me, that's the essence of strategy.

[C. Squier]

I just read that Mickelson today hit driver 40 yards OVER the green.  Is this possible???

His recovery shot was unbelievable considering the difficulty of the rough to the miniscule landing area he had to work with.  With that short game, I'd swing for the fences too.....make an effort to catch the highlight on the Golf Channel tonight if you can.  Definitely worth seeing.

[Bill_Yates]

Clint,
Thank you, that's precisely my point.  From the tee, throw anything you want at it, just be prepared to execute precisely the right shot - the green can defend almost all of them.  That to me is a strategic hole.

I too recommend watching the coverage tonight, pay special attention to holes #4 and #10.

[Carl Rogers]

Have they made any alterations to the hole to make the bale out left (as you face the green from the tee) more penal.  My recollection last year was that most pros were just trying to drive the green.

[Adam_Messix]

That little 10th Hole at Riviera is extraordinary.  The thing most notable about that hole in my mind is that no matter how long you can hit it, you absolutely MUST have the correct angle into the green, which is from the left.  I nipped a wedge from the right center of the fairway to a front hole there and watched as it was trying to spin to a stop but rolled all the way to opposite collar. 

I agree with Lynn that there aren't too many good vantage points around Riviera except at the 18th green. 

[Lynn_Shackelford]

The kikuyu helps defend the hole with today's equipment.  The front hole position used to tempt the players to drive the green.  Today it almost makes driver the club to hit.  With the front hole position the green must be carried and then stopped quickly.  Thus, with the front hole position it is better to use driver or lay way back so a longer wedge, that allows more spin, can be hit.
3 thoughts on the telecast I have watched thus far.
1  Peter Osty, "that upper tee on #5 makes for a awkward look at the fairway."  There is a long discussion needed for that comment.
2  Scott McCarron.  "In college I thought this was such a tough course 75 was a good score.  Today I shot 64."
3  That chip that Japanese sensation hit on 18 was a work of art. 

[Rob Rigg]

In Tiger Woods Wie Golf today I hit 3 wood on Riviera 10, it landed on the green and then kicked left into the rough which is apparently out of bounds?

Then I did the same thing with a 5 wood.

Next I hit a 3 iron and it jumped up onto the front of the green, one putt for a double.

Indeed, a difficult hole, no matter what world you are playing it in.

Even on TW Golf it is a really fun round to play, what a great course with fascinating architecture even though you cannot see/feel all the nuances.

I don't mind to be silly, but that's about as close as some of us will ever come to playing Riviera!

[Mike Jansen]

On one of the overhead shots of Riviera, I thought I saw an alternate green, to the player's right and behind the present 10th green.

Bill, I can confirm that there is an alternate green to the right.  When I had the pleasure of playing there that was the green in use.  I believe the last par 3, either 15 or 16, also has an alternate green that is short. 

The double green must have been a George Thomas thing... his Palos Verdes CC also has them.

[Brett Hochstein]

Does anyone know which hole locations will correspond with each day?  I've got limited space on the Tivo and am looking to pick which round I think will play most interestingly.   Thank you

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Brett, don't fret too much over TV coverage today.  I have no doubt they will talk much about Tiger's return and only a little about Riviera.  I was impressed with Nobilo's knowledge of the course.  I remember the days of Ben Wright talking about it, and he didn't have a clue about the holes he was covering.  McCord a bit more, but not much.
The alternate on 10 was put in by Ron Forse.  They have at least 3 alternate greens.  6, 10 and 16.  Remember this is a club that cares greatly about the PGA Tour event.  The members, not so much.
Since the membership is down, and with it, the amount of play, I have heard the alternates are not used as much.  They use to have two alternates in play on weekdays.

[Sébastien Dhaussy]

Weir on 10:

Play by Play for the Par 4, 315 yards 10th Hole   
X
Shot 1 304 yds to left rough, 76 ft to hole
Shot 2 51 ft to rear green side bunker, 27 ft to hole
Shot 3 5 ft to rear green side bunker, 24 ft to hole
Shot 4 2 ft to rear green side bunker, 23 ft to hole
Shot 5 23 ft to green, 3 in. to hole
Shot 6 in the hole

Dan,

to continue in the big numbers ... 3rd rd - Ryan Moore

Shot 1 278 yards to right green side bunker, 11 yards to hole
Shot 2 2 yards  to right green side bunker, 12 yards to hole
Shot 3 28 yards to left fairway, 16 yards to hole
Shot 4 2 yards to left fairway, 15 yards to hole
Shot 5 6 yards to left fairway, 9 yards to hole
Shot 6 7 yards to green, 5ft 5in to hole
Shot 7 in the hole

3 shots from 28 yards on the left fairway to bring his ball on the green ... was he under the fear of putting his ball back in the right greenside bunker ?

"Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course, the space between your ears." Bobby Jones

[Eric_Terhorst]

CBS today put up some stats on the 6 years of tournament play at #10

1484 plays total

59 tee shots on the green (4%)

6' 10" closest to pin (Jeff Maggert)

51 yds average second shot

18 eagles (1.2%)

GIR  from left rough  71%  Cumulative 188 under for those in left rough

GIR from right rough 38%  Cumulative 14 over for those in right rough

GIR from fairway--not provided

[Steve Burrows]

The alternate greens tend be used on Mondays during the summer, when there are outings.  So, whenever big groups pay big money to play the course, they usually don't get to play three of the more outstanding holes (6,10, and 16, as mentioned), and none of the "temp" greens have even remotely equal playing characteristics as the original(s).

There was also an alternate green constructed to front right on #14 when there was discussion of renovations to the green itself a number of years ago.  The work to the main green is yet to be done (if it ever will be) but, just in case, they still maintain the alternate, which, interestingly, has the purest stand of bent grass on the entire golf course.

[Jim Nugent]

For you newbies, the TEP Conjecture states that the scoring spreads on a hole are a reliable sign that the hole is a well designed strategic hole. Put differently, you should be able to predict great strategic holes by their high TEP Conjecture values.

OTOH, penal holes tend to have narrow scoring spreads and very low TEP Conjecture numbers.

#17 at TPC Sawgrass must be one of the most strategic holes on the planet then. 

[Jim Nugent]

The green they are playing is in my estimation "perfectly designed."  It is small, as it receives only wedge shots, it is an impossibly narrow target that tilts away from the player and is tucked behind a large deep bunker when the second shot (or drive) is played from anywhere but the proper spot.  And, from the proper spot, the small long green is open to the player, however, from here this narrow target tilts from the player's right to left, making a right-side hole location very dicey.  Perfect!

That doesn't sound a bit like a "strategic" hole.

Sounds like a pure "execution" hole to me -- at least for players who can't drive it to the green.

Am I wrong, boys? (I've never played the hole, or seen it in 3-D.)

Bob Huntley was a member at Riviera for years.  Also a very good golfer.  He said a year or so ago on this forum that there was only one way to play the hole.  Lay up off the tee, and hit wedge into the green, IIRC. 

Technology maybe has changed that a bit for the pros.  But if Bob is right, for the great masses #10 is not strategic at all. 

[Kyle Harris]

The green they are playing is in my estimation "perfectly designed."  It is small, as it receives only wedge shots, it is an impossibly narrow target that tilts away from the player and is tucked behind a large deep bunker when the second shot (or drive) is played from anywhere but the proper spot.  And, from the proper spot, the small long green is open to the player, however, from here this narrow target tilts from the player's right to left, making a right-side hole location very dicey.  Perfect!

That doesn't sound a bit like a "strategic" hole.

Sounds like a pure "execution" hole to me -- at least for players who can't drive it to the green.

Am I wrong, boys? (I've never played the hole, or seen it in 3-D.)

Bob Huntley was a member at Riviera for years.  Also a very good golfer.  He said a year or so ago on this forum that there was only one way to play the hole.  Lay up off the tee, and hit wedge into the green, IIRC. 

Technology maybe has changed that a bit for the pros.  But if Bob is right, for the great masses #10 is not strategic at all. 

For the disciplined player, there aren't many "strategic" holes. It seems as though the hole does a darn good job of tempting the players to stretch themselves to the limits of their games.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jim - Bob did indeed say that was the best way to play the hole for most people.  It's 280 to the front left edge from the back tee, and unless you can get it a little more than that such that you are actually on the green and can putt, yes it is best to hit a 180 club out to the left, then a 100 club up the angle of the green.

HOWEVER... 280 is not all that long of a shot for a lot of people these days.  So the temptation to try to reach the green is certainly not limited to pros.

AND... if one stands on a 305 yard golf hole and consciously decides to hit it 180 off the tee, he has made a strategic choice.

Thus, I can't see saying this hole isn't "strategic."  It screams out for a strategic choice to be made, one way or the other.  If the correct choice is indeed obvious for most, well.. that also doesn't mean that all will make such choice!

TH

[BCrosby]

For you newbies, the TEP Conjecture states that the scoring spreads on a hole are a reliable sign that the hole is a well designed strategic hole. Put differently, you should be able to predict great strategic holes by their high TEP Conjecture values.

OTOH, penal holes tend to have narrow scoring spreads and very low TEP Conjecture numbers.

#17 at TPC Sawgrass must be one of the most strategic holes on the planet then. 

Actually, no. The 17th at Sawgrass has relatively few low scores and a bunch of high scores. The scoring spread is bunched around relatively high scores. Most US Open holes have similar types of scoring spreads. Everyone plays those holes defensively. And they should. The design (or setup) of the holes doesn't leave them much choice.

The highest TEP values appear when the scoring is spread pretty evenly across both high and low scores. Lots of subpar scores and lots of over par scores. Think of the 13th at ANGC. Or the 10th at Riviera.

The TEP conjecture is at root about temptations. If architectural features effectively tempt a golfer to take chances, some will be successful and some will fail. Thus the scoring spread.

Good, strategic holes are those on which the temptation to take risks is real and actually induces a large number of players to voluntarily take chances that the course itself does not require them to take.

Bob   

[Jim Nugent]

Bob, every year at the Players, the scores at #17 range from 2 to (I think) double digits.  That is the spread, and it's huge.  Maybe unprecedented for a par 3.   Someone correct me if I'm wrong: the spread has nothing to do with averages. 

Tom's conjecture surprises me a bit.  Without much evidence to back this up, I would think penal holes yield the widest range of scores.  A few golfers will hit real good shots, and make birdie or better.  But the penalties also lead to real high scores. 

So my conjecture is that penal holes have very wide scoring spreads.  Another guess: strategic holes only lead to wide scoring spreads by virtue of their penal-ness. 

[Lou_Duran]

Here is an interesting piece from the consuting architect:

http://www.asgca.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=230:tournament-preview-2009-northern-trust-open-at-riviera-country-club&catid=45:news-tournament-preview&Itemid=147

If this was already discussed, my apologies.  I watched the tournament yesterday and played the course with Tiger (not that one, the other one) a few years ago.  Loved the course- not nearly as much as Sir Huntley- and was not at all jarred by Fazio's (or is it Fabio's in accepted gca.com parlance?) work.   Based on what I had heard, the course had undergone drastic plastic surgery, and nowhere were the results more offending than the "restoration" of the split fairway on #8.  I played the left fairway and made 5, hitting long on my approach and failing to get my chip up and down; Tiger made an easy par from the right fairway (a bit ironic, I know) and I just didn't get what all the fuss was about.

What struck me the most about Riviera is how much the grass dominates how the course is played.  The redan #4 no longer plays like one- Tiger hit what we thought was a perfect shot, a driver (into the wind coming from the ocean) down the right side only to see the ball bounce just a few feet and straight forward.  On 10, my well executed pitch to the front fringe stuck like it hit Velcro.  Ditto for my approach to the left side of the green complex on 18, though it banks sharply toward the hole right.

I am fairly sure that the kikuyu came way after Capt. Thomas.  I doubt that the course plays anything like it did when the architect conceived it, probably grassing the fairways and roughs with bermuda.  Arguably, the kikuyu makes Riviera more difficult for the pros and amateurs, and with a winning score of -15, might the course be irrelevant for tournament play if it played as it was conceived?  Is #10 a great hole today because of the design as the Capt. conceived it, or because the kikuyu accidentally erased the advantages of modern club and ball technology?  If Riviera today does not generally allow the bump and run that makes many classical courses special, is it not more of a modern, aerial course by virtue of the damned/blessed kikuyu?   

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Lou, one of you more thoughtful posts.  This is why Geoff, when asked courses he would most like to play lists Riviera, before kikuyu.  I agree, it is an aerial course and today's kikuyu defends it against today's equipment.
What stands out for me though is the routing and mix of different holes and greens.  I haven't played one that is routed better.  It is truly an example of "the whole is greater than the sum of its parts."

[BCrosby]

Jim -

It's not that there are 2's on the 17th. Of course there are. It's that there are not a large number of 2's at the 17th. Birdies are rare. And these are the best players in the world hitting PW's. Why is that? Because the marginal payoff from playing tight to the pin is overridden by the possiblity of a watery death.  As with all penal holes, you play conservatively. The upside doesn't justify the downside of playing aggressively. At the 17th at Sawgrass, the best players in the world tend to play for the middle of the green even though they are approaching with what is normally considered a scoring club like a PW. It is, simple put, just a hard hole.

But not a very intesting one. On good strategic holes the trade-off between a possible low score and a possible high score tilts toward inducing the player to try the risky shot. Players are forced with a tough choice. With the result that good strategic holes give up a large number of low scores and also extract a large number of high scores.

BTW, if you run the numbers, the 12th at TOC has one of the most remarkable scoring spreads of any par 4 I've ever seen. Which confirms my belief that it is one of the best and most underrated strategic holes in the world.

Bob  

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