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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2009, 10:30:33 AM »
Not saying they're the greatest courses, but I would think Wentworth would be a natural from a logistics strandpoint.  Perhaps, Loch Lomond.
Not a chance.  Neither is a links.
Interesting, but I would have to think that the probability of an inland course has to be higher than "Not a chance" sometime in the future.  The ratio of inland courses to links in the UK has to be something like 10:1, or even greater.  The Scottish Open, as we all know has been played at Loch Lomond for a number of years now.  From an infrastructure standpoint, it's tough to beat some of the really strong heathland courses - again I'm thinking Wentworth, but something like Walton Heath could certainly fit the bill.  Close to London = $.
No.  The Open has always been played on Links.  It is an integral part of what makes the tournament a Major.  Not a chance is generous. 

I don't think the R&A need to worry about near to London, they make plenty as it is and the logistics of hosting a tournament of that magnitude near London are not as easy as you may think.  Also, I'm not sure many of the heathland courses are up to it without substantial lengthening, even if they have the space for tented villages and crowds.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Rich Goodale

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2009, 10:30:42 AM »
Scott

Having organised BUDA I and several subsequently, I know that many participants sign up not knowing that their reach may exceed their grasp.  We have never had a completley full tee sheet and one of the challenges of organising these events is scrambling to match people and tee times onthe day.  If you want to participate, you will be able to.  If necessary, I will sell you my place!

Rich

Jamie Barber

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2009, 10:33:41 AM »
I think having a venue close to the TOC is a no-no purely for sentimental reasons (i.e. they wouldn't take it to Fife and not use TOC).

Peter Dawson was asked about other courses in 2007. I think his reply clearly shows they are happy with what they have (note the misspellings are as per the article):

Q. Is The Open Championship rotor now set in stone or would you consider -- I've heard a strong case for Royal County Down. Do you look at those courses or are you having decided now you've got your ten in the rotor that you'll keep to?

PETER DAWSON: We could have nine courses that we use for the Championship. We are obviously aware of all of the links courses in the UK, what they're like, what they have to offer, what the infrastructure around those courses is capable of handling and so on. But, no, we're not closed-minded to say we'll always have these nine courses, and over the years the courses used for the Championship have changed quite considerably.
But right now at this moment we're not actively considering another venue that is true potential for The Open. If you took Newcastle, Royal County Down where we're having the Walker Cup this year, it's a course we know very well, is it really an Open Championship venue? Love the course, I think it's terrific. No, I don't think we do think it's a big enough golf course for The Open, to be honest. But it is a lovely, lovely golf course.

Regarding BUDA, I'd love to play but in this time of recession not sure my budget will stretch.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2009, 11:19:46 AM »
I think Adrian is spot on...
I dont forsee any other course being added to the rotation at all...why would they really?
Every course they use is weel suited for an Open in terms of infrastructure....This years venue excluded......and St Georges for accomodation...but that is why those two are used so sparingly.

Paul Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2009, 12:30:15 PM »
The venues for the Open have been decided up until 2012:

2009 - Turnberry, 16-19 July

2010 - St Andrews, 15-18 July

2011 - Royal St George’s, 14-17 July

2012 - Royal Lytham & St Annes, 19-22 July
Paul Jones
pauljones@live.com

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2009, 01:27:39 PM »
I think Adrian is spot on...
I dont forsee any other course being added to the rotation at all...why would they really?
Every course they use is weel suited for an Open in terms of infrastructure....This years venue excluded......and St Georges for accomodation...but that is why those two are used so sparingly.

Michael,

Why exclude Turnberry because of infrastructure. Have you ever tried to get in and out of Muirfield when the Open is on there ?

I remember when Carnoustie was added back into the rota, it had just hosted a very successful Scottish Open and the R&A promised the Carnoustie Links Trust the Open provided they didn't hold any more Scottish Opens as the R&A didn't want another competition being held on a links. If you remember the infrastructure for Carnoustie wasn't that great.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2009, 03:16:09 PM »
Jamie Barber - As a director at Deal I can assure you any rumours that RCP "are in trouble financially" are utter rubbish. I can say we are reducing capital expenditure in 2009/2010 to balance an expected fall in income as a result of the recession, I do not know any private members club in the UK that isn't.

As for the Open, my understanding is Porthcawl has been rejected due to lack of space and Saunton for access. The only sensible introduction into the rota would be a south east club due to increased corporate revenues. That leaves either Deal, Rye, Littlestone or Princes as the only links courses. I could not see Sandwich hosting an open every 5 years like TOC.

The Open is likely to be played inland when the Masters leaves ANGC.
Cave Nil Vino

Anthony Gray

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2009, 03:37:56 PM »


  Would it ever be played on a modern course? The PGA at WS..The US Open at Chambers Bay.....Why not THE Open at Castle Stuart or Kingsbarns?

  Anthony


Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2009, 03:43:00 PM »
KINGSBARNS WILL REPLACE TURNBERRY IS MY GUESS.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Anthony Gray

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2009, 03:57:05 PM »
KINGSBARNS WILL REPLACE TURNBERRY IS MY GUESS.

  Isn't Kingsbarns too short and lacks width for spectators?

  Anthony


TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2009, 04:20:35 PM »
It is 7133 from the tips.... doesn't seem to be all that long especially with the fairways as firm as they keep em...

However, it has seemed to hold up to the players just fine every year during the Dunhill..

It would be great to see them tee it up there for an open some day!!

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2009, 06:52:49 PM »

I think the math is easy; The R and A's recent allocation has shown to fancy courses to host the event at least once every ten years or so. (Hoylake is the exception but it has just been reintroduced on the rotation). TOC get's 2 every decade (0 and 5). Of the other 8 years 4 go to Scotland; Troon, Turnberrry, Muirfield, Carnoustie and 4 to England; Hoylake, Lytham, RSG's, and Birkdale. Hence no room for new if an old venue is not taken of the rota.....

I think it is surprising that for the first time in history the Open is going to two English courses in consecutive years (2011 RSG's, 2012 Lytham), anyone know why? as with current nine courses there would really be no need.


George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2009, 07:23:07 PM »
Cristian,

How do you know Hoylake has been reintroduced into the rotation?  Based on the success of the 06' Open?  Could this be the one spot that is open (no pun intended) once every 10 years for new courses?

Cheers,

George
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Cristian

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2009, 07:33:06 PM »
Cristian,

How do you know Hoylake has been reintroduced into the rotation?  Based on the success of the 06' Open?  Could this be the one spot that is open (no pun intended) once every 10 years for new courses?

Cheers,

George

Of course I don't know for sure, but it seems the R and A like a rota rather than new courses entering and leaving the arena. Also I remember the r and a was very complementing after 2006 and I think what also helps despite the course's modest length they had the right winner. Therefore I think they will get the nod again in 2014 or 2016.

I agree it would be interesting to see how other courses would stand up to today's top players. Why not a fifteen year rota that would open 4 further spots. I would give them to Deal, RPortrush, Dornoch and Saunton, spreading the Championship around the country more.

However I do not see it happen given the R and A's recent decisions.

James Boon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2009, 03:59:35 AM »
People keep mentioning access and infrastructure. And then, is there room for spectators, is an issue as well? Instead of writing off the chances of any potential newcomers to the rota what about the existing facilities?

From my recollection of the Opens I’ve been too as a spectator, access is always somewhat a compromise. After all, most of these links courses are by the sea so cant be accessed from all points of the compass and they are usually next to a small village or town, not just off a major road, so there are often bottlenecks and convoluted park and rides involved to bus people in.

Regarding room for spectators, TOC is far from ideal with viewing from one side only (and don’t forget the almost 6 hour rounds because of shared fairways and greens, but before you get excited I’m not calling for it to be removed from the rota!) where as I found RSG and Birkdale to be much better with their larger sand dunes for spectators. One thing that the R&A seem to really like is lots of room around the 18th for the large banks of grandstands (and smaller ones on most of the other holes as well, and the first tee) and all the current courses on the rota seem to have this.

Regarding infrastructure, this obviously includes many things, but one which is often mentioned is hotels and accommodation, but a possible solution hit me yesterday. I was listening to the England v Windies cricket and they were mentioning the various cruise ships that were in port and how some of the commentators were staying on these (as I assume Antigua being a small island doesn’t have too many large up market hotels?) so why not anchor a large cruise liner off shore? Would be an interesting feature for the camera men to keep zooming into and very striking (though thoughts of Canberra in San Carlos Water in 1982 spring to mind.)

Also did a bit of surfing on this subject and came across this report by the local council for their involvement in the 2003 Open at RSG:
http://www.dover.gov.uk/CPACD/CaseStudyNo14Golf.pdf

The way I see it is that most of the courses currently on the rota have been hosting the open for some time and so as the number of spectators and facilities required has grown they have been able to cope with it as a gradual increase, even if they appear to be far from ideal. To suddenley ask a course like, say Saunton, to determine and cope with all of the logistical issues first time would be a very big ask!

However, I reckon if the R&A really wanted to add other courses to the rota, and they could get the local councils on board, then it would happen, but this would take a lot of time and money.

Another factor for me is that the R&A seem to be going along the lines of protecting par, in a similar style to the way the USGA do for the US Open. I assume that this pretty much means a tough course, well over 7,000 yards. So unless the R&A change their apparent recent attitude to par some of these shorter courses being mentioned dont fit the bill, unless they bring in their own version of the "Open doctor" for some major surgery? Now surely thats more interesting to discuss than whether a small town in Britain has enough Bed & Breakfasts, and will be able to make their main road one way, once every 10 years or so...

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2009, 06:17:56 AM »
KINGSBARNS WILL REPLACE TURNBERRY IS MY GUESS.

  Isn't Kingsbarns too short and lacks width for spectators?

  Anthony



KB suffers in the same way as the Old Course does for spectating. With the fairways practically adjoining on a lot of the holes it is impossible to have spectating areas in between.

Also if you look at the scoring in the Dunhill I think you will find that generally speaking the scores are lower at KB than the Old and certainly lower than Carnoustie.

It would however set an interesting precedent as I think it would be the first time the Open has gone to a commercial pay and play rather than a members course.

Niall

Jamie Barber

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2009, 06:56:44 AM »
Doesn't TOC count as pay&play (being public)?

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2009, 06:58:33 AM »
Doesn't TOC count as pay&play (being public)?

And Carnasty and Turnberry.  They all have clubs associated with the course, but the courses are public.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2009, 08:26:52 AM »
Regarding infrastructure, this obviously includes many things, but one which is often mentioned is hotels and accommodation, but a possible solution hit me yesterday. I was listening to the England v Windies cricket and they were mentioning the various cruise ships that were in port and how some of the commentators were staying on these (as I assume Antigua being a small island doesn’t have too many large up market hotels?) so why not anchor a large cruise liner off shore? Would be an interesting feature for the camera men to keep zooming into and very striking (though thoughts of Canberra in San Carlos Water in 1982 spring to mind.)

James, cruise ships were used to solve a similar hotel shortage problem when Jacksonville hosted the Super Bowl a few years ago.  I seem to recall that when all was said and done the plan was generally criticized.  Maybe others will know for sure.

Ed

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2009, 08:58:58 AM »
Not sure I'd want to be in a cruise ship on the North Sea if the wind gets up.  Can't imagine sleeping that well.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2009, 09:37:48 AM »
Jamie/Sean,

Clearly I was talking bollocks, my apologies. I would like to say it won't happen again but that would be wishful thinking.

Niall

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2009, 09:41:08 AM »
There is a blurb on Deal's website (which is top-notch, by the way) about course extensions to keep it up to date for championship play, so they obviously don't feel the horse has bolted yet re: hosting another Open.

Michael Wharton-Palmer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2009, 09:58:04 AM »
Niall...
but clearly your sense of humour would be the dogs bollocks...

Jamie Barber

Re: British Open rota
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2009, 10:10:56 AM »
There is a blurb on Deal's website (which is top-notch, by the way) about course extensions to keep it up to date for championship play, so they obviously don't feel the horse has bolted yet re: hosting another Open.

I think Deal has the course, but not the space. They'd have to have grandstands on the beach. You'll see what I mean on saturday

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: British Open rota
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2009, 10:40:03 AM »
James Boon - I can assure you councils virtually knock the door down at St Andrews not the other way round, the Open is worth a considerable on going income to the local economies.

Jamie Barber - Are you referring to the world's largest free to build grandstand?
Cave Nil Vino