17th at Pebble--Ugliest Bunker in Championship Golf?

[Eric_Terhorst]

On the ATT coverage last night, they had a camera angle looking from the back of the 17th green at Pebble (roughly from south to north in the image below).  Even at that angle, to me the big bunker fronting Pebble's 17th green is just hideous.  From the overhead view shown below, it looks like some kind of monstrous deformed Salvador Dali-esque appendage.

Aesthetically, it doesn't work.  Strategically, I can't figure out how the  fingering of this bunker adds to the hole.  I suppose the size of the bunker causes the player who is woefully short or left of the target to have a difficult long recovery to a very small target, and the fingering severely punishes one who unluckily ends up under the lip. 

Could one of you experts or great fans of Pebble Beach enlighten?  Does anyone know how the bunkering on this hole has evolved over time?

Thanks!

[David Neveux]

Eric,

I saw and felt the exact same thing you did. 

[Philippe Binette]

Have you guys ever seen that bunker front the ground...

I haven't so I won't judge...

Who cares how it look from the air... How is it from the ground, that is what counts and that is what has prevented many architect from building nice bunkers, because they often don't look good from a plan

[Eric_Terhorst]

Philippe,
I mentioned that I saw it from near-ground level on the TV--that view caused me to recoil in horror. 

It's been a long while since I played Pebble--the hole is surely dramatic and historical, but I wonder with all the tinkering this course gets how this bunker has managed to survive. 

 Here is another view from Evan Schiller's web site

[Mike Wagner]

Are you guys simply saying it is ugly and that it should be changed based on that?

I think it's fantastic.  The "fingers" flow with the angle of the green and it gives a cool visual from the tee.  I'd much rather see something like that than a perfectly rounded off bunker with no character.  I've also seen balls on the grass in those fingers - really tough!

Bottom line is it's much better from the ground. I'm sure you could look at just about any course in the world from the sky and wonder why certain things work the way they do...

[Philippe Binette]

For those wanting to have fun... go look at Chicago Golf Club from the air... and then from the ground... It might change your vision of golf architecture

[David Neveux]

I have never seen it in person, and was merely commenting on the angle which Eric mentioned.  I'm not suggesting that it doesn't serve it's purpose, and / or should be removed / changed.  Personally I just didn't like the view, and thought that it looked unpleasant.  

[Ryan Farrow]

"Could one of you experts or great fans of Pebble Beach enlighten?"


This is your argument dude. You should be enlightening all of us, especially with such a provocative title.

Then you post a google earth aerial?

[Andrew Summerell]

In time it will be remembered as the original ‘Jellyfish’ bunker that started the ‘Sea Creature’ movement in golf course architecture. I believe the next one they are going to try in the ‘Manatee’.

[Adam Clayman]

Eric, I can assure you the bunker's look from the tee is not hideous (at least it wasn't). As matter of fact, very little if any of the bunker's sand is even visible from the teeing ground. The raised lip is all one can make out.

Those three tongues do alter one's depth perception making them functional on more than one level. Physically and psychologically.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Thanks Adam

You should be enlightening all of us, especially with such a provocative title.

Then you post a google earth aerial?

Ok... I've often observed aerials used here in discussions regarding bunkering, but next time I'll think about how I might try to make a post more to your liking Ryan.   

The "provocative" title reflects my opinion, that's all.  My purpose was--all in fun!!--to seek the opinion of those who spend more time than I thinking about these aesthetic and strategic issues--you know, people who do this every day, like Design Associates, from Schmidt-Curley Design.  Or those who have spent more time on the course than I.  Would love to see more pics if someone has them, and would be interested to hear your opinions!

Looking at the overhead views of the rest of the course, I note there are bunkers on 7 and 8 that have similar, though fewer, "fingers" so I can't say the one on 17 is "totally out of place."   The finger on 7 might serve the same purpose of deception  that Adam describes.  From the view back I saw on TV, the  fingers looked hulking and unattractive.  I like the look of the other bunkers on this hole and wonder if the big one couldn't be modified (or split up) to fit better into the aesthetic scheme and serve the same strategic purpose.

If I were Clint Eastwood or Peter Ueberoth, I'd be looking for ideas from people like you, seeking to change it, knowing full well and caring not that some lunkhead would be bound to criticize whatever the owners do.

What's your view? 

[Adam Clayman]

If you go here  http://www.flickr.com/photos/asimchoudhri/2928727950/  you will see a picture of the hole from an odd angle. While it is not indicative of the actual look from the teeing ground it does show how the hideousness noted is not apparent from ground level.

One of the often heard opinions about this hole is how disappointing it is. I don't agree or understand that attitude but I can see how some could have it. The hole has no eye jarring features. Everything appears at grade, ties in, and, is one long linear view. There aren't many photos of the hole because of that long linear aspect. In other words it's not photogenic, but as a golf hole, it has everything one needs. 



Clearly the current bunker has been worked on since my time on the peninsula. The white Augusta like sand is one of those new grand decisions made by a great group of corporate managers.

[J_ Crisham]

For those wanting to have fun... go look at Chicago Golf Club from the air... and then from the ground... It might change your vision of golf architecture

Phileppe,   I've done both more than once-it only magnifies the brilliance of CBM/Raynor. I consider this to be the best course I've seen/played in the Midwest. Eric,  I wouldn't disagree with the overhead critique but as Adam stated ,the upper lip is all that is visible from either tee. I have been in this bunker and to a front pin, it is an impossible recovery shot.                   Jack

[Kyle Harris]

"Could one of you experts or great fans of Pebble Beach enlighten?"


This is your argument dude. You should be enlightening all of us, especially with such a provocative title.

Then you post a google earth aerial?

His argument is that the bunker is ugly and the aesthetics match no purpose for the bunker.

Did they not teach debate out there in Pittsburgh?

**AND YOU SHOULD BE DARN PROUD YOU GOT MY 5000th POST**

[TEPaul]

"17th at Pebble--Ugliest Bunker in Championship Golf?"



Eric:

To me, not at all but I sure don't think it (or the bunkers around that green today) are anywhere near as cool looking as those amazing so-called "imitation dune bunkers" that hole once had.  But I am aware that those old "imitation dune bunkers" might've been a maintenance nightmare right out of the box. I think it might've been the maintenance of those ultra cool looking "imitation dune bunkers" on that course that precipitated the severe argument greenkeeper Mayo and Mackenzie had that forced Morse to step in and mediate.

[Carl Rogers]

This bunker makes me ask the question fo how big or small a hazard should be for it to be effective???
Is the hostility to this bunker a function of its largeness??  If it were smaller, would it even be a thread on this site?

[Neil_Crafter]

TE
The "imitation dune bunkers" you refer to were primarily the work of Chandler Egan, who, with Robert Hunter and Roger Lapham, formed a committee of three to strengthen the course in readiness for the 1929 US Amateur. I don't believe Mac had anything to do with this work. I believe Mackenzie's falling out with Joe Mayo occurred at Monterey Peninsula CC.

[cary lichtenstein]

I like to bunkers on 17, the shape of the green, the chipping and putting, so there.

If you just miss the green, the bunker shots are really very normal.

If you whiff it off the tee and end up 40 yards short, you are in a hazard, not like 12 at Augusta from which you must drop behind the water, just a real challenging shot from which I have left it in the bunker and still made a bogey.

I like different challenges, so this fits into my mind set.

[Lyne Morrison]

Eric - I think it is fair to say that the aerial perspective of the left side bunker appears to be quite contrived and amoeba-like in shape.

An aerial view in itself however can often be misleading. We need to remind ourselves - as others have mentioned - that it is necessary to consider the view from the tee and fairway surrounds - at the golfers eye level. It is apparent from Adams link and the image below that the shape in the ground is really quite comfortable.

Looking beyond the immediate I feel that I can also see a relationship with this bunker and the shape of the bays beyond - but that may just be my eye, we all perceive different things. My feeling is that the broader third dimension can aid in pulling these things together and that the aerial or plan view often has little correspondence to the perspective on the ground.

Cheers - Lyne

[Adam Clayman]

Rationalizing backwards, one of the reasons that bunker might be bigger than it would appear to need to be, could be to keep balls from running into Stillwater cove without building up some odd looking berm. Balls pulled left suffer fate that is directly proportional to how far they are pulled. (Pushed for you Mollydockers)

[Jim Johnson]

Crazy question...

If the green would have built between that "ugly" bunker and Stillwater Cove (i.e. in Eric's overhead view, to the right of that bunker) what would the hole have been like to play? Would it/could it have brought any more strategy into play? Albeit slightly shorter than the original, it would have brought the water definitely more into play.

I've never been to Pebble, never been to the Peninsula, and have only seen the course from television broadcasts. The way television flattens everything out, I have no idea if this would have "improved" things, or made things worse. Would there have been much of a view towards that alternative greensite, or is the land so flat that any view would have been negated?

Just an idea/question.

JJ

[Ronald Montesano]

What was the problem with the google earth image?  Weird question, that one.

Yup, it's an ugly bunker.  It's not pretty.  That answers the question.  I have a tragically disproportioned cat that is flat-out ugly.  When fatty camps out at night with the kids, however, she keeps them warm.  She is ugly and functional!

I imagine that this bunker is pretty functional.  If you hit a shot woefully short in the bunker, you should face a long blast.  As some other commented, get it up close to the lip and you have a normal bunker shot.

The fairway bunker on #10 at Augusta is freaking ugly, too.  Still a great addition to the hole and should never be changed, just like the jellyfish at Pebble.

[Mike Hendren]

Bunker beauty is the single most prevalent guilty pleasure among those who participate in this forum.

I must be way off base because the 17th at Pebble Beach routinely is panned here, yet I think it is one of the great par threes in this country. Brilliant earth-hugging, sky-line, confounding architecture, well sited and positioned in the order of the routing.  Not to mention that it is the venue for two of the greatest shots in modern U. S. major championship history.

Mike

[Rich Goodale]

Bunker beauty is the single most prevalent guilty pleasure among those who participate in this forum.

I must be way off base because the 17th at Pebble Beach routinely is panned here, yet I think it is one of the great par threes in this country. Brilliant earth-hugging, sky-line, confounding architecture, well sited and positioned in the order of the routing.  Not to mention that it is the venue for two of the greatest shots in modern U. S. major championship history.

Mike

Bravo, Brother Double, and Ditto!

Bogie

PS--anybody who can actually see those silly little front fingers of the left trap, much less even think of the possibility of hitting into them when standing on the tee, should be bowling rather than golfing, and ideally with one of those mechanisms that keeps your ball out of the gutter....

j-p p

[Tom Huckaby]

Make that a triple ditto - perfectly said, Mike - and Rich.

There's no way that one can play that golf hole and say "gee, that bunker is ugly."  Adam nails it also - hell you can't even really see it... unless one is 14 feet tall, that is.  GCA aficionado Shaq times two might hate the look, but only he.   

This is a great golf hole for all the reasons Mike mentions. 

TH