Using OB as a design strategy near greens

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Occasionaly one finds a green hard up against an OB fence - think last hole at TOC - usually out of necessity rather than design.

Obviously the OB threat will tend to make one more cautious with the approach shot - so is OB a valid design element next to a green or a no-no?

In other words - should a designer deliberatly set a green against OB (with enough room for maintenance turning of mowers, and safety not being an issue etc,) to enhance the strategy of the approach shot - on a short Par 4 for example?

[TEPaul]

I like it and one of my favorite holes has it in spades----#17 Maidstone. OB is less than 8 steps from the right side of the green and about 10 behind it. It's a post and rail fence and a public road.

[Kyle Harris]

I like it and one of my favorite holes has it in spades----#17 Maidstone. OB is less than 8 steps from the right side of the green and about 10 behind it. It's a post and rail fence and a public road.

Tom,

You saw it without getting to see it. The 3rd green at Schuylkill has the OB sneaking in along the left side and it's VERY much in play if you're taking a shot in two since anything just left of the green is liable to bound OB. It's a great, double great feature.

P.S. We better get kicking on these Podcasts.

[Rich Goodale]

The classic example used to be the 7th at Hoylake, a mid-long iron par-3 which was bounded on the left at the green buy a kop, over which was OB.  While the kop remains, the OB was taken away 10-20 years ago, to the great chagrin of at least one of golf's most beloved figures.  When I played with him in BUDA 2005 he managed to get up and down for a crucial par from a hooked tee shot to the ladies 8th tee, a fact which seems to have not made an impression on him.

Go figure....

[Dan Boerger]

Another good example of this design strategy is 12 Merion East. While the green slopes severely (too even?) back to front, if there's a back pin placement and you get aggressive on your approach you can find yourself OB quickly. There have even been stories of tournament players putting it OB. Ouch.

[john_stiles]

Another classic was the 17th in the old routing scheme at Hoylake.  The OB was 8 or 10 steps to the right of the green.

[Sean_A]

If a course has to have oob, I think it best to incorporate it into the design.  That said there is a huge fear that the public may be in danger as was the case with (at least partly) with Hoylake's Royal.  In the case of Dowie I am not sure there ever was a pressing need to create oob.  This does sound cheesy to me just stick oob about the place.  Sort of like Carnasty's 18th during the Open.  That oob near the green is dopey.  I know there is a boundary line further over, but why shove it in for the Open?

Ciao 

[Tom_Doak]

There used to be several more internal out of bounds hazards at Hoylake in John Ball's day.  They thought it was less expensive to build a cop and call it a hazard than it was to take care of a couple more bunkers.  Of course, for a time there, the penalty for out of bounds was NOT stroke and distance.

It is rare that you can use O.B. as a hazard on a modern course because any O.B. that's forced on you is almost certain to be a potential public safety hazard, and a designer would be pretty crazy to invite that upon himself.

However, the coolest exception that I know of to this rule is the boundary along the 2nd, 3rd and 12th holes at Talking Stick (North).  The boundary just separates the golf course from more of the Indians' reservation ... but by building right up to it and then calling it O.B., instead of just allowing a scuffled recovery play from the desert on those holes, Coore & Crenshaw managed to take the same boring desert as every other course in Scottsdale and transform it into a frightening hazard that really makes you think.

[TEPaul]

"P.S. We better get kicking on these Podcasts."


Kyle:

Just let me know. I'm going up north for a few days towards the end of the week but after that I should be home for the rest of my life.

[TEPaul]

Tom Doak:

I wish the same could be said for the OB right on Coore and Crenshaw's marvelously inscrutable 12th hole at Easthampton but the OB neighbor put up a helluva fuss.

[D_Malley]

you could easily hit an approach shot OB on several holes at Merion East.
# 1, 7, 10, 11, 12, 14, & 17 on some of those holes there is a bunker seperating the OB, but the OB is usually within 10 yards of the green and usually the possibility of a kick towards the boundry.

you might also include #15, and possibly #13, the OB is very close to those greens two as well.

[Wade Whitehead]

I just played Tot Hill Farm for the first time yesterday.  The 17th green is literally against a stone wall that marks OB.  Because of it, of course, the approach demands consideration.  The entrance road, which lies just three paces or so over the short wall, is very much in play, especially considering the longer club many players hit into that hole.

WW

[Anthony Gray]

  Scotland seems to use this feature more than the US courses. OB to the right of Prestwick's first hole is a good example.

  On a similar note I think Pete Dye has made a career out of having hazards around greens.

  Anthony

[Will Haskett]

I have no problem with courses using boundaries to create tough scenarios, but this thread brings to mind one of my biggest pet peeves: In-course OB.

I know of golf courses where a hole doglegs, but has a green from another hole tucked in the pit of that dogleg. To aid in safety (I guess) and prevent golfers from cutting the dogleg, they add in OB stakes. It drives me bonkers. How can you be on the property of the golf course, have a clear shot and call it OB?

[Sam Maryland]

Will,

I could not agree with you more.  The guys in my group dealt with the issue by agreeing to ignore OB inside the course.  As they say, everthing's negotiable, including jail terms!  (and we are cognizant of when it's a safety issue and play accordingly)

[Ronald Montesano]

Baby makes three...OB is a perimeter issue.  If you can't keep the ball on the course, you deserve stroke and distance.  Mark the internal stuff a hazard and penalize with stroke only.  I find it lame and tend to ignore it in casual rounds.

[Morgan Clawson]

My biggest pet peeve is having OB close to line of play and then having a cart path run inside of that.  Innevitably, the ball will bound off the cart path and out of bounds.  Totally unfair.

I also think that most courses are constrained by OB rather than using it as a stragegic element.  In most cases, there is only so much land available for the course.

[mike_beene]

Stroke and distance is too severe a penalty for stroke play.You are forced to be defensive.Would you design differently for distance only? If water became stroke and distance tomorrow,would you want to change some of your designs?

[Rob Rigg]

I've played a few county courses in Ireland where OB is lurking by many of the greens.

Since the greens can be run onto for the most part it isn't too big off an inconvenience or mind fook.

Target golf with OB around the greens is a different story.

[Jim Nugent]

OB runs real close to Carnoustie's 18th.  Pretty sure you can miss the green left by inches and end up OB there.

Is OB also a risk on the home hole at Hoylake, as played in the Open Championship?  I recall thinking how easy it looked on TV to push the approach there just a little and go out of bounds. 

[Sean_A]

OB runs real close to Carnoustie's 18th.  Pretty sure you can miss the green left by inches and end up OB there.

Is OB also a risk on the home hole at Hoylake, as played in the Open Championship?  I recall thinking how easy it looked on TV to push the approach there just a little and go out of bounds. 

Jim

For Open players there is absolutely no reason to flirt anywhere near oob on Hoylake's Open finisher,  There is room out left and they can all reach the green from any position in the fairway.  Granted, the angle is still better from the right, but its a high risk play given that birdie is on most of the time if played conservatively. 

One of the nastiest oob I have come across is at Castletown's 5th.  A slinging legger to the right with the land flowing that way as well - toward the beach.  The only thing is there is a road between the beach (oob) and the fairway.  Its a good butt clenching hole on what is a very good and relatively unknown course.

Check it out  http://www.golfiom.com/course/holes/hole_info_5.html

Ciao

[Will Haskett]

Stroke and distance is too severe a penalty for stroke play.You are forced to be defensive.Would you design differently for distance only? If water became stroke and distance tomorrow,would you want to change some of your designs?

I love this hypothetical question. I am not a designer, nor do I pretend to know what it takes. But, as a player, if the penalty for water hazards changed to that of OB, it would completely change how I view a hole with a hazard. I already tend to treat lateral (red lined) hazards differently than traditional (yellow lines) hazards, but stroke and distance for hitting into the water would drastically alter course management

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Some very good responses here, but mainly of older courses where the OB has probably been added after the golf course, however I was thinking of 3 yards being close to the edge of a green, not 10 yards. A 10 yard gap either side of a 20 yard green gives a 40 yard wide target area from the fairway - not particularly threatening for a second shot of under 100 yards.

Now if the OB was 3 yards from the right edge of the green that would really spice up a right hand pin position.

I haven’t seen any  recent courses designed by a GCA using OB as such an aggressive design option next to a green. Personally I think he would probably be crucified by the golfing public but it’s nice to know the Golfclubatlas Discussion Group would welcome it.

[Jaeger Kovich]

What about courses where the route scheme has an outer loop around the perimitter of the property, before turning in where the rest of the holes are in the interior of the site? I feel like I have seen this scheme in a few books before, and certainly has a number of greens, and entire holes for that matter, along OB stakes.

Maybe it just seems pretty obvious to me because I have spent so much time there, but Quaker Ridge's first 8 holes have OB up the right side of every one of them, and is a factor on every approach. Even the 2nd hole, which cuts in more then the others, is flanked by the maintenance dump which I believe has white stakes too. I have a feeling that Fenway, which is right down the street, and is also a Tilly design is very similar in this respect too.

[Cristian]

This one is a good example; 550 y par 5, but often against the wind.

Royal St Georges 14. The bunkers front left tempt you to aim your second shot at the right side flirting with OB.

I guess it's OK if you don't have too much club in your hand for your 3rd shot, but if this hole is against the wind.....

According to the RSG website 22 sevens or worse were scored here during the 1993 Open. (When if I recall correctly conditions were benign.)