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Patrick_Mucci

# 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« on: February 07, 2009, 04:20:34 PM »
As you walk off the 2nd green down to the 3rd tee and look out a what lies in front of you, you realize that "you're not in Kansas anymore"

The view/vista is awesome and intimidating.

The golfer has little or no idea as to where the green is.
Most first time golfers think the hole is a dogleg to the right.

The golfer looks, from an elevated tee, down to a valley, with a huge hill on the other side.  At the beginning of the fairway a huge diagonal bunker runs from the left to far right, with the carry getting progessively longer toward the right, the side that most seem to want to challenge.

The tee shot presents some interesting dilemas.

How much of the diagonal bunker do you want to challenge ?
Where's the wind and how much will it affect my drive ?
If you have a pin sheet (tournament) where do you want to approach the hole from ?

The hole is optically and mentally deceptive.
There's an inherent gravitational propensity to attempt to challenge the right side of the bunker.  In reality an almost straight tee shot, toward the gap in the two bunkers cut into the distant hill is probably the best line.

But, there are other problems facing the tee shot.
If one's drive just carries the right side diagonal bunker, the golfer finds  himself with a downhill lie, 200+ from the green and a huge hill in the way.
Drives hit too far will go through the fairway into the tall, dense fescue.
Drives hit left can find more bunkers, tall rough and be even further from the green.  Drives hit to the center of this valley like fairway have between 200 and 180 to the green and a huge hill in front of them.

The hill is covered with thick fescue.  It is to be avoided at all costs.

Once your drive comes to rest, a number of decisions face you.

First and foremost, where the hell is the green ?
Second, how far am I.
Third, what club will get me to the green without bringing the hill into play ?
Fourth, and it should come third, but, in the valley, shielded from the wind, most golfer forget about it.  Fourth, where is the wind coming from and what effect will it have on a ball that must be hit high ?
Fifth, is the challenge that confronts me beyond my ability, and if so, should I take the alternate route to the right.

The ideal tee shot leaves one about 160 from the green on the fairway upslope leading to the fescue covered hill.

While there is a directional marker behind the green, it's a general, not a specific marker, and, your angle into the green, like looking below the surface of the water, may bend the perception of where the green and hole are actually positioned.

If one chooses to play the safer right fairway route, that fairway gets narrow, has bunkers and sits well below the putting surface, which sits at an awkward angle and slope, leaving the golfer with a very dicey recovery.

Typically, your caddy will climb the hill and position himself on the line to the hole, or, in many cases, he'll position himself on the most practical line, since, with certain hole locations, a slight deviation from the caddy's alignment to the hole can result in disaster. 

Assuming that you've hit a solid approach, as one climbs the hill the anticipation of discovering where your ball ended up is exciting or nerve wracking, depending upon how well you think you executed your approach.

As you crest the hill, you can't believe what you're seeing.

The green is massive and unlike any green you've probably seen.
To the far right is an upper plateau that falls off sharply, to the left is this sloped green with bowls and ridges, with another thin plateau at the rear.
The green falls heavily to the left front corner.

Behind the green is a berm, almost a fortification, planted with rough.
It is NOT where you want to be.

What's amazing, as you clear the crest of the hill, is the discovery of fairway bunkers just short of the green.

The hill begins to descend on the far side until it reaches the green, then, the upslope begins again.

Approach shots that have missed the green are now faced with an incredible array of recovery shots to this unique green.

And, the recovery shots remain very dicey, especially when the greens are F&F.  The recovery can be a very short, tricky one, or a very long difficult one.

It helps if the element of luck is on your side.

Putting on this green is a science in and of itself.

A good caddy, and that's about the only kind there are at NGLA can be of enormous assistance, especially on this hole and green.

Three and four putts are common, especially if you get above the hole.

When you climb the back of the green and head to the bell tower to sound the all clear, a bell donated by Joe Mcbride, and you look back, it's another awe inspiring view.

This hole can ruin a good score from the first two holes or it can give you a boost of confidence.

Few golfers who made a good score, leave that green without feelling that as well as they may have played, that they were also lucky.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 05:06:25 PM »
The one feature of this hole I've never totally understood is the cross bunker short of the green, over the top of the hill.

The Alps at Prestwick has a cross bunker and doesn't allow a run-up ... I understand that.  But, then what exactly is the point of having fairway up at the top of the hill?  Seems like most or all second shots played to the top of the hill will run down to the cross bunker ... so everyone goes to the right if they can't reach the green.

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 06:17:29 PM »
Hole 3 Aerial:


Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Patrick_Mucci

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 06:21:56 PM »
Tom Doak,

That cross bunker was there in 1938, in fact, it appears to be much larger, extending from the left side of the green almost all the way to the right, where it ends, but then, there's another bunker filling in between that bunker and the far right greenside bunker.

It's a semi-circular configuration.

It's quite a complex.

The approach must have been a demand shot

TEPaul

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 07:08:58 PM »
Tom Doak:

I once asked, on here, the very same thing you did in reply #1 about that cross bunker in front of the green and the fairway at the top of the hill and a few people (including GeorgeB ;) ) jumped all over me for being a nonpurist. Apparently Macdonald understood that Prestwich had one and so he used one even if he had fairway before it and Prestwick didn't.

Frankly, and on second thought, that bunker really does intensify the approach shot over the hill which I think is a good thing. For pretty good players I think it makes them tend to take a little more club to be sure to carry it and when that course is firm and fast that does bring the berm at the back of the green more into play.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 07:39:40 PM »
TE: I think your right - it makes the player think "extra club" and you get a hot approach - not good!

also that bunker is very shallow and balls will run thru it and playing out of it to the green is a pretty easy shot
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 08:59:41 PM »
"also that bunker is very shallow and balls will run thru it and playing out of it to the green is a pretty easy shot."

George:

Well some might say playing out of it onto the green is a pretty easy shot but others probably wouldn't, the reason being it is separated from the green by that really "uncomfortable yardage" that ironically I think Tom Doak mentioned in his "Anatomy of a Golf Course" he thought was a most interesting thing to do!   ;)

I didn't say anything about playing the 3rd hole but I will say it sure is a golf hole that one is not likely to ever forget even after seeing that course one time.

As for playing this hole I will say something that is pretty coincidental to me that involves the two blind approach shots I like better than any in the world---this one and the one at Royal County Down's 13th. The first time I played NGLA 3rd after not having been there in 40 years and the first time I ever played RCD I hit the same club, a 6 iron, and both times I thought I hit the shot way too far to the right but when I got up there both times my ball was about two feet from the hole.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:08:31 PM by TEPaul »

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 09:23:06 PM »
Tom P. mentioned on the first hole thread that the aerial made the hole appear "almost grotesque" (IIRC; and I'm not picking on you Tom, they do look very different from the ground images) in comparison to how it looks from ground level.

In pulling together the composite images that make up aerials that I'm posting, I've spent a lot of time looking at the course from that perspective. What I've noticed it that it looks different than pretty much any course I've ever looked at from an aerial perspective. What's more, most other courses resemble each other far more than any of them resemble NGLA.

Why is this? I speculated that perhaps it was due to the relative lack of aerial photos from the time when it was built and hence, the designer's then didn't know or care what their courses might look like from overhead. But if that was true, other courses from the time would exhibit the same traits. So I'm back to square one. Any ideas on this?
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

TEPaul

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 09:40:36 PM »
"Tom P. mentioned on the first hole thread that the aerial made the hole appear "almost grotesque" (IIRC; and I'm not picking on you Tom, they do look very different from the ground images) in comparison to how it looks from ground level."


Charlie:

Let me amend what some may think when I said that aerial of the 1st hole made it look grotesque.

First of all, grotesque probably isn't the right word to use at all and on reflection doesn't mean at all what I guess I meant to say which was it just makes the hole look so different to me than it does to me from the golfer's eye level.

The fact that one gets to see it from the air as your photo shows is probably a good thing as they can appreciate the incredible difference.

This is something that struck me frankly about NLGA in it's entirety. God knows how many times I played that golf course over my life before I first saw an aerial photo of the entire course. It just shocked me how narrow it really is. When on the ground and on the holes all those years I just had no impression at all of that which probably says something quite important about the brillance of the land and the course's routing on it.

But one thing I do know is Charlie Macdonald never saw an aerial of that land or that course until many years after he routed and built it.  ;)

I have no idea at all whether Macdonald completly realized he was essentially doing an old fashioned narrow linksland style out and back routing when he did NGLA or whether it was a complete coincidence.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 09:45:45 PM by TEPaul »

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 09:50:29 PM »
This is a most interesting thread to me; compelling because 1) the famous venue of NGLA, 2) the 'voice' of not just one esteemed poster,  Mr. Mucci, but also Mr. Paul, and 3) the architecture of CBM, which, in working at Bandon Dunes, I have the opportunity to observe that distinct pedigree expressed anew at Old Mac, through the efforts of Mr. Keiser, Renaissance Golf, and the committee imput of Misters Klein, Bahto, Rogers.

What is frustrating to me is the nature of the photograph...it is aerial in nature, and though I/we are most assuredly grateful fo the work of Mr. Georges in stitching together those photographs, my point of this post is a request that someone, as corollary to both the aerial AND the verbal descriptions of Mr. Mucci, post ground photographs of the holes in discussion.  That occurred minimally for holes one and two........through the efforts of the many who have taken photographs at NGLA, and who post here, is it possible to COLLABORATE in fully expressing the excellent discussion of play there?

That would help flesh out this most compelling thread....it would bring it to life, as we would see the golf from the ground point of view, which is, in fact, the only view with which we play the game.

I hope that is clear?!! (i.e., the wine is settling in, nicely!)

Thanks,

Tom
the pres

Joe Hancock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 09:56:39 PM »
Sir Thomas of Jefferson,

You are wonderfully verbose whilst tipsy.

Back to the magical thread at hand......

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 10:08:41 PM »
That post was hard work, Joe!!

Yes, back to the thread at hand.

Tom
the pres

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 10:13:58 PM »

The golfer has little or no idea as to where the green is.
Most first time golfers think the hole is a dogleg to the right.


I have never seen the course in person.  I have seen many, many photos of this hole from the tee and the fairway.  The first several times I saw them with no further context or understanding of the hole, and I thought for certain the hole must turn right.  Even after reading how the hole plays about a year ago, I still have trouble looking at the photos and believing that the green can really be up there.

One more round of thanks for this series of threads!   

TEPaul

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 10:39:05 PM »
Mr. Thomas of Jefferson (as the remarkable Mr Joe of Hancock calls you):

Those aerial photos of those first few holes are pretty interesting, at least to me, and as one who has played there a lot BECAUSE from the golfer's eye level you are definitely not aware of a lot of ground out there or up there or down there or whatever you can see on those holes in those aerials as anyone can clearly see from them.

But I guess that's just a certain condition of architecture and golf---eg no one plays it or strategizes over it from a thousand feet in the air, they do it from ground and eye level and clearly that gives the architect a ton of opportunities for all kinds of visual deceptions via use of the vertical variety as opposed to the use of visual length and width without vertical visual deception.

The fact is there may not be much better examples of the foregoing than holes #1, #2 and #3 at NGLA that way. Did Macdonald understand that? Does a bear shit in the woods?  ;)

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2009, 10:57:36 PM »
Tom Paul;

Thank you for that post.

Yes, those aerials......they are compelling and interesting to me as well (as all aerials have always tended to be, for me).

Yet since I haven't played there, ground photos would assist in seeing more easily the vertical element you note.  Enuf about that.

If the first three holes are perhaps the outstanding examples of the vertical element as incorporated by CBM, are there others in the routing?  Is it remarkable that the vertical element is so strongly used, so early in the round?

I will wait and see what unfolds in this thread.


Tom
the pres

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2009, 10:59:49 PM »
my point of this post is a request that someone, as corollary to both the aerial AND the verbal descriptions of Mr. Mucci, post ground photographs of the holes in discussion.  That occurred minimally for holes one and two........through the efforts of the many who have taken photographs at NGLA, and who post here, is it possible to COLLABORATE in fully expressing the excellent discussion of play there?

I agree that ground level photos are needed, but beg you to give me (and others) time to post.  Patrick and I are not coordinating schedules here and it's been just 6 hours or so since he posted.  As far as your comment that photo sharing "occurred minimally" for the first two holes, I sincerely wish that I had more photos to share.  I took more than I have ever taken on a golf course, but it's very hard to take photos that fully describe holes at a course like NGLA while playing.  I could probably spend two days and 4GB of space and still find some areas wanting.  Having said that, if anyone wants someone to come along and take pics while they play, I would go back just for that reason.  

Now to some photos.......
First, from the second green.


From 3 tee.  Why would anyone think this hole goes to the right?  ;)


From the fairway.




From the fairway looking back towards the tee.


A peek at the green from the end of the fairway.


The incredible 3rd green from the upper fairway.


And a widescreen view of the green.


Looking back at the hole from the upper fairway.


The green from the rear.




As you head towards 4 tee.


The bell.


I wish photos could better convey the immense scale and complexity of the course.  I was awestruck pretty much the entire time I was there.

Tom Jefferson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2009, 11:12:51 PM »
John Mayhugh;

Thank you for the photographs, which, when combined with the verbal description of Pat, literally knock me back in my chair!!!

I certainly did not mean to put pressure on you, or anyone with photos, nor did I mean to suggest you ought to post on some tight and coordinated schedule!  I just had both the thought and the wine, and that was enough to spout out the suggestion!

Thanks again.............what a golf hole!

Tom
the pres

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2009, 11:18:13 PM »
Tom,
No problem.  If you ask me, Pat is going way too fast.  I think a hole a week pace gives more people time to check in and perhaps post the views that I didn't get.  I, too, would love to see even more of the course.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 11:39:45 PM »
this may help you see about where the green is - it is very wide - abut 150 feet but less than half that deep

those brackets may be a bit too wide, esp on the left

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 11:50:35 PM »
John Mayhugh:

It's pretty hard for people who haven't known that course over the years to appreciate the incredible difference in look on that course and from that 3rd tee in the first two photos on your reply #15.

There was a major forest to the left of that hole only about 3-4 years ago. I will never forget coming up to the top of the hill on the 2nd fairway a few years ago and being able to see the redan for the first time in decades. I was completely stunned. What a difference and what a wonderful look. The same from the 3rd tee which is a whole lot lower than up on that 2nd fairway.

By the way, that enormous pole at the top of the berm behind #3 green has about 3-4 settings across that berm, right George. In my experience the pole behind Piping's #12 only has one but that green is essentially set in a bowl.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 11:56:29 PM by TEPaul »

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2009, 12:08:25 AM »
Not to be flippant, but this is definitely my favorite hole I've never played.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2009, 12:09:52 AM »
John Mayhugh:

It's pretty hard for people who haven't known that course over the years to appreciate the incredible difference in look on that course and from that 3rd tee in the first two photos on your reply #15.

There was a major forest to the left of that hole only about 3-4 years ago. I will never forget coming up to the top of the hill on the 2nd fairway a few years ago and being able to see the redan for the first time in decades. I was completely stunned. What a difference and what a wonderful look. The same from the 3rd tee which is a whole lot lower than up on that 2nd fairway.

By the way, that enormous pole at the top of the berm behind #3 green has about 3-4 settings across that berm, right George. In my experience the pole behind Piping's #12 only has one but that green is essentially set in a bowl.

That's hard to imagine.  The course is just so stunning no matter where you look.  I have to admit I'm pretty jealous of you & Patrick and your experiences there.

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2009, 12:11:42 AM »
John's pictures are much better than mine.  But here is a slightly zoomed view from the tee:
  


Notice the directional flag above the hill in line with the center bunker.  Even though you know the green is over the hill to the left it is hard to commit yourself to that line.  The wandering path of the fairway to the right seems to have a gravitational pull on the mind in that direction.  Did CBM intentionally use the rightward flow of fairway to lure the less resolute astray?

More than any other hole at NGLA, #3 is etched in my memory.  I'd love to see it again.

Ed

Jim Nugent

Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2009, 01:24:03 AM »
In pulling together the composite images that make up aerials that I'm posting, I've spent a lot of time looking at the course from that perspective. What I've noticed it that it looks different than pretty much any course I've ever looked at from an aerial perspective. What's more, most other courses resemble each other far more than any of them resemble NGLA.

Why is this? I speculated that perhaps it was due to the relative lack of aerial photos from the time when it was built and hence, the designer's then didn't know or care what their courses might look like from overhead. But if that was true, other courses from the time would exhibit the same traits. So I'm back to square one. Any ideas on this?

A while back I looked at NGLA and Shinnie on Google Earth.  Shinnie looked pretty much like other golf courses.  NGLA looked like a Salvador Dali painting.  I thought it was due to the bunkers' shapes and placements, plus the fairway configurations.  No mostly-straight ribbons there.  Just the opposite.  

Would be interesting to look at aerials of other CBM courses, and see if any of them look like NGLA does from the air.  The few I checked out don't.  

Why then NGLA?  Some off-the-cuff guesses:  1)  The land.  NGLA's topography led CBM to create these shapes.  Perhaps if he'd had similar land elsewhere he would have made a golf course with similar formations.    

2) Seth Raynor.  After NGLA, didn't Raynor do the legwork on all other courses CBM worked on?  Perhaps we see SR's greater influence on other CBM courses.  

3)  His baby.  More than any other course, this was CBM's true love.  He searched for and bought the land.  Was a founding member.  The designer.  He poured his heart and soul into NGLA.  Maybe that's what we're getting a glimpse of at NGLA.      

4.  CBM's time.  He spent more time on NGLA than any other.  Fine tuned and changed it for years.  Had he given that much time to some other courses, maybe they too would have looked different from the sky.  

My guesses lay all the credit at CBM's feet.  I wonder if any Desmond Muirhead courses might look like this, too?  




BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: # 3 on the Enchanted Journey
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2009, 04:51:58 AM »
I hope this does not sound negative at all because I am so excited about this great golf course, but is it as "blind" to the first time golfer as it seems on these photos?  It appears that it is almost too hard unless you either 1) have a caddy or 2) really know key locations on the golf course.  I love the bunkering, but I am struggling that the holes require so much local knowledge that they can be "unfair" to the virgin NGLA adventurer.
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

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