[TEPaul]

Like on #1 for me the play on the 2nd hole was always to hit a 2 iron right and generally down into the fairway bowl to the right of the green. Even though the green is pretty blind from down there I always had a lot of faith in my 60 deg. wedge and the ability to hit sort of a long flop shot the right distance.

[George_Bahto]

[quote TEPaul
"By the way, that topography in that area where the original green seems to have been would make for a two level green BEFORE the dropdown onto the present green."


This is what I've been saying

[TEPaul]

“This is what I've been saying”

George:

I see; I didn’t know that. I guess the following threw me off.


“This yardage of 230 is very interesting for it places the green ON THE TOP PLATEAU, SHORT OF THE PRESENT GREEN - not on today’s green. Karl Olsen and I often talked of the original 2nd green as including the plateau in front of the green as part of the original Macdonald thinking - this would include the steep fall down to the present green. That would be interesting!”


It seems to me the original green might’ve had two tiers with the fairway area BEFORE the drop-down onto today’s putting green being the back one. That would seem to make sense given that description of the hole and the early yardage of the hole and I guess also that early photograph that seemed to have a bunker I suppose at the left front (probably the same one that is the last on the left today) although that old photo of the original greens seems sort of confusing to me. But that early photo does say it's the 2nd green and it sure isn't today's green.

[TEPaul]

"During the last twenty years I have studied the course from every angle and listened with an attentive ear; consequently very few of the holes have not been altered, although most of the changes have been slight. Only this year I have distinctly altered the fourteenth and seventeenth, making these holes, which were both rather short drive and pitch holes, some thirty yards longer and bunkering them more closely. On many of the hole I have, at different times, built entirely new putting greens, lengthening some and shortening others. I am not confident the course is perfect and beyond criticism today."

(Probably written in 1927 in Bermuda and published as part of "Scotland's Gift Golf" in 1928. It seems Macdonald continued to work on NLGA well into the 1930s).

[Tony_Muldoon]

Pat, Charlie, John, George, Tom and others thanks for this wonderful tour. What a place.



"The Sahara of the Royal St. George's at Sandwich I found in our second hole.  In one sense it is not a replica, but it is a mental picture of that fine hole, embodying the underlying principle-a golfer’s reward is granted to him who can negotiate the carry he is capable of accomplishing.  The real carry on the line of the hole is over an immense bunker calling for 210 to 220 yards the ball can then run onto the putting-green. Less powerful players must satisfy themselves with placing their ball form the tee advantageously to reach the green in two.  I am confident that it is a much better hole than the original Sahara."
CBM. Scotland's Gift.

[jkinney]

"Sahara" was improved immensely by the rebuilding of the tee box and its extension back almost to the driveway and then by the later separation of the middle an back portions. Removing the middle tee from being part of the first green also allowed for the marvelous new back right hole placements on #1. When the trade wind is up, the carry from the new back tee on the line to the middle of Sahara's green becomes a VERY long one indeed over the massive Sahara bunker. And the windmill comes into play a lot more than before.
"Sahara" is vastly better a hole now, IMO.

[Patrick_Mucci]

3 is on the far left toward the front, with the sharp falloff to the left.
   This is a awkward location to drive toward since the tee aims further right.
1 is toward the front, which can be dicey since balls hit short of the green on the
  downslope will run far beyond the hole and balls hit just short will be stopped by 
  the subtle rise just short of the green.  A rise that's almost invisible.
2 is fairly benign and is used often to speed up play

[Tom_Doak]

Have any of you guys actually seen the original Sahara at Royal St. George's?

It was eliminated by a redesign in 1975, but when I was there in the early 1980's they still maintained the old green.  (They also did the same for the original "Hades" 8th hole.)  No doubt the stretch of rough between tee and green was not open sand to the degree that it was when the hole was famous ... but you could still make out the key points of the hole which were as follows:

a)  It was 230 yards
b)  The green was elevated but built along the back side of a ridge with a severe hazard in front ... so you had to carry it almost all the way to the green, or play away safely to fairway short and right, reversing the diagram of Cypress Point #16

That would have been more consistent with the green position that George indicates and that Tom Paul discusses.  But Macdonald was probably unsatisfied with having too many people able to reach HIS green (due to the shift in technologies), and quickly worked to move the green further back.

[Jim Nugent]

"During the last twenty years I have studied the course from every angle and listened with an attentive ear; consequently very few of the holes have not been altered, although most of the changes have been slight. Only this year I have distinctly altered the fourteenth and seventeenth, making these holes, which were both rather short drive and pitch holes, some thirty yards longer and bunkering them more closely. On many of the hole I have, at different times, built entirely new putting greens, lengthening some and shortening others. I am not confident the course is perfect and beyond criticism today."

(Probably written in 1927 in Bermuda and published as part of "Scotland's Gift Golf" in 1928. It seems Macdonald continued to work on NLGA well into the 1930s).

An unanswerable question, but maybe interesting to speculate: suppose CBM had defeated Father Time, was still alive and well today, with all his faculties intact, and still running the show at NGLA.  What would NGLA look like now?  How would Macdonald have changed it, in his pursuit of perfection? 

Another question.  Has NGLA run out of room to expand/lengthen its holes? 

[TEPaul]

Jim:

NGLA has pretty much run out of room to lengthen holes, in my opinion. There may be up to about six holes where something could be done but in each case things could get a bit goofy for one reason or another. It may be worthwhile to talk about that as these threads go through the holes. I've always maintained that if the club wants to increase the challenge of the course the best and least costly way to do it is to just drop the par on a few holes. They already did that last year on one hole---#5. I think they could do the same on #7 and even #18. I'd leave the course at its old par 73 for the members and just create a few alternate cards for good player of 72, 71 or even 70.

As for what Macdonald would do with the course if he was around today, you're right, that is ununanswerable and I don't think anyone should try to speculate with assurance. NGLA is not like Pine Valley where there are a number of things Crump said he wanted to do but he didn't live long as you know and he was gone before the course was finished. But thankfully there is a record of what he wanted to do even to holes that were in play when he was still alive.

[Tom Huckaby]

Darn it!  #2 comes and goes over the weekend?  How DARE you all!

 

This may well be my favorite hole on the course, although it is so tough to choose.  Another regret from the infamous round, however... hole very blind as Pat says... me not really knowing what's what... the carry looking pretty damn far straight at the green, and a large "fairway" beckoning from the right... caddie no help, not paying any attention us bag-toters... I went right.  Regrets, I have a few.  Heck even I can make that carry, and darn it I would like to have tried.  What's cool though is that the pitch up from that right bowl is VERY fun - many ways to do it... bounce off side hill even....

Another great aspect of this hole is the danger LONG... which must get found a lot given the downhill propel short of the green....

LOVE THIS HOLE!  My favorite #2 on earth (although Dornoch gives it a damn fine run).

TH

[Matt_Cohn]

Why is it "proper" to slope a tee up or down to make a particular shot easier or harder?

In particular, on this hole, Pat mentioned that the golfer who doesn't account for the sloped tee could leave his shot out to the right - making for a particularly difficult angle of approach. That seems odd.

Also, what about when the hole is into the wind (?) and you'd prefer to hit one low rather than high?

Isn't there an expectation that tees are flat, allowing a golfer a fair start to play whatever shot he wishes to play? Are there other sloped tees on the course?

Nobody else has mentioned this after Pat did, but it seems kind of strange to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Why is it "proper" to slope a tee up or down to make a particular shot easier or harder?

I've never seen a tee sloped downward.
It's proper when the golfer is confronted with a steep incline.
Without that assistance the tee shot could be too daunting for the average to below average golfer.

In particular, on this hole, Pat mentioned that the golfer who doesn't account for the sloped tee could leave his shot out to the right - making for a particularly difficult angle of approach. That seems odd.

Why is it odd ?

Also, what about when the hole is into the wind (?) and you'd prefer to hit one low rather than high?

The hill shields the effects of the wind until your ball clears the elevation equivalent to the top of the hill.

If you hit a low drive, you'll never make the hill.

Isn't there an expectation that tees are flat, allowing a golfer a fair start to play whatever shot he wishes to play? Are there other sloped tees on the course?

Every tee I know of is sloped.
Without slope, there is NO drainage.
As to the slope on other tees, I'll have to take my level with me the next time I play.

Nobody else has mentioned this after Pat did, but it seems kind of strange to me.

What part do you find strange ?

[Matt_Cohn]

Why is it "proper" to slope a tee up or down to make a particular shot easier or harder?

I've never seen a tee sloped downward.
It's proper when the golfer is confronted with a steep incline.
Without that assistance the tee shot could be too daunting for the average to below average golfer.


In particular, on this hole, Pat mentioned that the golfer who doesn't account for the sloped tee could leave his shot out to the right - making for a particularly difficult angle of approach. That seems odd.

Why is it odd ?

Also, what about when the hole is into the wind (?) and you'd prefer to hit one low rather than high?

The hill shields the effects of the wind until your ball clears the elevation equivalent to the top of the hill.

If you hit a low drive, you'll never make the hill.

Isn't there an expectation that tees are flat, allowing a golfer a fair start to play whatever shot he wishes to play? Are there other sloped tees on the course?

Every tee I know of is sloped.
Without slope, there is NO drainage.
As to the slope on other tees, I'll have to take my level with me the next time I play.

Nobody else has mentioned this after Pat did, but it seems kind of strange to me.

What part do you find strange ?

Well, good point about slope for drainage, but that implies that the tees on the first 3 holes at NGLA are all sloped but you thought #2 was the only one worth mentioning so there must be something special about it! 

Also I insist on you taking your level and reporting back with a full reading from every tee!

But to get back to the point, it's "odd" because the purposefully-sloped tee is a feature that I have never heard of discussed on any other good golf course, ever. So I think that qualifies as odd.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Matt,

Many ranges have their tees upsloped to help the golfers.

And, I know of upsloped tees at other courses where there's a need to get the ball airborne quickly.

It's an architectural tool.

It's not odd.

In the context of # 2 at NGLA the slope is rather pronounced in that the golfer can detect it, whereas many slopes exist on tees, but, the golfers can't detect them.

The tee shot at # 2 is not your normal tee shot.
Balls that don't get airborne quickly will result in a high score on only the second hole into the round, thus, potentially ruining the round.

The sloped tee is a positive addition.

[Bill_McBride]

The first hole at Elie has a steep hill 50 yards in front of you, so steep there's a periscope so the starter can see when the fairway is clear.  The first tee is as markedly sloped up as any I've ever seen.

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