NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey

[Tom Huckaby]

Fantastic stuff, Pat.  You do have a heck of a lot to offer these rare times you venture outside the eristic.

 

Funny too...  I was present for Rich's one shot at this course (my one shot also)... so well.... let's just say as this goes forward, I am available to confirm or deny Rich's recollections.   

In any case I looked at that hole (not having caddie help - we had only one and he was indeed devoted to our host and tolerant of Rich  )... it seemed like driver was the obvious call to me... but it was cold, we had no warmup and it was into the wind.

One thing is certain in any case:  if there is ONE GUY on this forum I will trust completely for an astute consideration of all factors going into the best playing of a golf hole IF LOWEST SCORE IS THE OBJECTIVE, it is Pat Mucci.  That man puts the G in Grinder.

However... Pat, do you ever play "what the hell" golf shots?  That is shots you know to be not the wisest or most practical or highest percentage play, but shots you hit just for the hell of it because they're fun... score be damned?

NGLA seemed chock-full of opportunities for those to me.  If you could factor those in that would be fun also.

TH

[George_Bahto]

going down the left side:

Macdonald cunningly spotted in a bunker just beyond the last one that is visible from the tee and often, if you go down the left, you think you've cleared the "last" bunker, you may end up in the blind one.

Take a par and go to the next tee!!

The right rear corner of the first green original was the 2nd tee. Recently the green was expanded back there and the original 2nd tee was eliminated and that area was sort of "leveled" out a bit.

I heard a story at NGLA one day on how Greg Norman thought the 1st hole should best be played (for him). He thought hitting into the left front bunker was a good play off the tee, then hoping to get up and down from there for a 3!

Good luck with that one - boy, don't miss!

Additionally, Bill Salinetti has recently "short-cropped" the entire right area of the approach to the green - no longer rough, It looks great and makes a great play if you end up right of the green.

great opening hole that was the original 10th.

Pat, thanks.

[George_Bahto]

[Tom Birkert]

What a fabulous golf hole this is. Only played it once, but as a lefty I can echo those who were worried about hitting the clubhouse!!

Our caddies told us on the tee that par would be a good score. We all drove the ball pretty well (all of us hit driver as advised) to just short of the green. The pin was back left.

We all took 5.

Welcome to NGLA!

[Tom Huckaby]

The one and only somewhat downer part about the infamous Goodale/Childs/Huckaby/host* round there was that we got recently aerated greens.  This tamed them considerably.  I made fairly routine two-putts on 1 and 6 from spots our host found quite incredible.  Another asterisk has to go next to these "achievements" due to the slow speeds.  My god I can only imagine how crazy those greens get when fast.

BTW as further testament to the greatness of this course, the aerated greens took very very very little away from the great experience.  They do just certainly give me the asterisk re those putts.

TH

*name not stated in interest of protection.

[Kalen Braley]

*name not stated in interest of protection.

Its OK Huck...you can tell em it was Hamilton B Hearst... 

[Tom Huckaby]

*name not stated in interest of protection.

Its OK Huck...you can tell em it was Hamilton B Hearst... 

Damn Kalen nice going letting the cat out of the bag.  Now poor Hammy is gonna be inundated with access requests even more.

 

[Kalen Braley]

*name not stated in interest of protection.

Its OK Huck...you can tell em it was Hamilton B Hearst... 

Damn Kalen nice going letting the cat out of the bag.  Now poor Hammy is gonna be inundated with access requests even more.

 

I suspect he can handle it....a guy like him must have 4 or 5 personal assistants. And who knows how many more clubs he's now a member of with all the deals that can be had with this recession going on. 

[PThomas]

[

[TEPaul]

GeorgeB:

I'm sorry the back left bowl is gone or was softened out on that hole. Last time I played there they were just about to soften it. Is it true that Karl Olsen basically put that back left bowl in there or basically did the back portion of that green?

Also there's a very old photo in one of the albums in the clubhouse that shows that green with about four players on it. It just didn't look at all to me like it does now but maybe the photo or angle was throwing me off for some reason.

I've always heard that Perry Maxwell did some things on that course but nobody seems to know what he did or else they won't admit it. Do you know? If you do you're probably not about to say, are you?  If that's the case the question is----why not? 

[Matt_Cohn]

Good or bad that this hole has *22* bunkers?

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike Sweeney.

It's true that a driver will bring the lawn and parking lot into play.
However, I feel that today's equipment produces straighter drives, reducing the propensity to hit it left.

My intent is to drive it at the left corner of the right side bunker with a draw, leaving me a very short distance to the green.

For whatever the reason, that strategy has worked very well for me over the years.

Patrick,

A couple of points:

1. Most people here may get to play #1 at National once or twice in their lives. As such, there is no way that the goosebumps don't cause the occasional quick swing left or leave it out way right, which is safe for the most part.

2. #1 was not designed to be the first hole, unless George states that it was Macdonald's original intent to eventually switch the 9's.

3. If 9 and 10 today played as they originally played as 1 and 18, would the course be as strong today with 10 as a starter and 9 as a finisher?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fantastic stuff, Pat.  You do have a heck of a lot to offer these rare times you venture outside the eristic.

There's a lot to be said for staying within one's "comfort zone"

Funny too...  I was present for Rich's one shot at this course (my one shot also)... so well.... let's just say as this goes forward, I am available to confirm or deny Rich's recollections.   

In any case I looked at that hole (not having caddie help - we had only one and he was indeed devoted to our host and tolerant of Rich  )... it seemed like driver was the obvious call to me... but it was cold, we had no warmup and it was into the wind.

One thing is certain in any case:  if there is ONE GUY on this forum I will trust completely for an astute consideration of all factors going into the best playing of a golf hole IF LOWEST SCORE IS THE OBJECTIVE, it is Pat Mucci.  That man puts the G in Grinder.

However... Pat, do you ever play "what the hell" golf shots?  That is shots you know to be not the wisest or most practical or highest percentage play, but shots you hit just for the hell of it because they're fun... score be damned?

ABSOLUTELY.

By nature I tend to be reckless, discipline was an acquired habit 

I love formulating creative shots and I revel in the thrill of executing them.

Not long ago I was faced with a difficult situation.
I came up with a zany idea, and then executed it, hitting the green in regulation.  I called my fellow golfers over to see the divot from where I hit the shot to show them how wild it was.  Being inventive, even if the shot isn't executed perfectly, is a lot of fun.  However, the tendency to be creative where the reward/risk is great gets muted in medal play.
I think match play encourages those shots, medal play discourages them.

I also hit a lot of Abby Normal shots.
I might take a 4 iron from 150 yards, choke it down and punch it along the ground or to the front of the green.  (think Neil Regan and his putter)

NGLA is an absolutely GREAT course for eccentric shots.

My good friend Joe McBride taught me more inventive shots at NGLA then I ever would have imagined.  He showed me how to use every club in the bag on a number of shots.  It's still fun to try to execute them in casual rounds or when you've got nothing to lose.

When it comes to a unique or difficult shot, most golfers fall back to their comfort zone and shy away from extravagant attempts.

NGLA seemed chock-full of opportunities for those to me.  If you could factor those in that would be fun also.

I'd love to, but, there are so many of those opportunities, which occur randomly, that it's hard to inventory them.   One of the beauties of NGLA is that you unexpectedly find yourself facing a very unique shot, one which you've probably never seen before.  And, it's at that time that creativity becomes your ally.  But, then, you have to believe you can execute that shot.

NGLA when it's fast and firm is loaded with those opportunities.

I think that's what helps to make it so much fun to play.

On the first hole, if you've hit your drive on the upslope anywhere from 50 to 5 yards from the green, you can hit virtually every club in your bag, and you can hit different shots with the same club.

It's great fun.

[George_Bahto]

Tom - I think the bowl was there, maybe not as pronounced as it is now and 2nd the tee area was slightly built up - I'll see Karl in a few weeks ask him what he did on that green.


Maxwell: I’ve been trying to figure out what he did there since I started researching but haven’t come up with a thing. .................  And actually, in this case, I might even tell  - hah

To me the 10th green might be something Maxwell might have been involved in.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Good or bad that this hole has *22* bunkers?

It's great.

As you get into the golf course and especially on # 18, the random nature of the bunkers will eventually capture an errant ball.  

Bunkers that seem far out of play somehow come into play when you least expect it.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

EXCELLENT, fantastic summary.  OK, so I get that a running inventory of all possible "what the hell" shots at NGLA is way too much to expect.  Just if you could factor in one or two along with the RIGHT ways to try to play the holes, that would be cool.

For example.... is it ever possible, or even attemptable, for you to drive the green on 1?  Would that qualify as a what the hell, maybe in a downwind or something?

TH

[George_Bahto]

It's really difficult to count the bunkers on the course and of course they have been changed over the years but there are somwhere between 360-366 bunkers on the course

[Patrick_Mucci]

A couple of points:

1. Most people here may get to play #1 at National once or twice in their lives. As such, there is no way that the goosebumps don't cause the occasional quick swing left or leave it out way right, which is safe for the most part.

I didn't say it was impossible, only that it's become less likely

2. #1 was not designed to be the first hole, unless George states that it was Macdonald's original intent to eventually switch the 9's.

I don't agree with that theory, even though CBM wrote same in his book, "Scotland's Gift".

I've had this discussion with George and have presented him with my points.

1.  I don't think CBM would have sited the clubhouse where he/it would be
     looked down upon by the members at Shinnecock, from their lofty
     clubhouse.

2.  I don't believe that the 1st hole would have been offset from the
     cliff/water and seperated from the 18th hole by such a vast margin, a
    margin that was so great that a huge clubhouse with surrounding lawns
    fountains and a huge parking lot could easily fit within it, with room for a
    big circular driveway to boot.   That donut hole, so to speak, doesn't
    make any sense, unless, CBM reserved it for his clubhouse.

3.  The club didn't own enough property at the location behind the 9th
     green to build a clubhouse.  That land was acquired more recently.
     Hence,  a clubhouse couldn't be built behind # 9 because NGLA didn't
     own the land to build it on.

4.  As a finishing hole, # 9 is rather bland or anticlimatic.  I can't see CBM
     crafting # 9 as his finishing hole.  

5.  I can't see # 10 as a starting hole, it's far too difficult, the kind of hole
     one could expect in the body of the course.

6.  The site of the current club house, on its lofty perch with its magnificent
     views would have been too hard to overlook.  You'd have to be blind to  
     site the clubhouse elsewhere.

7.  There was a dock and a beach club down by the practice range.
     Making them a natural adjunct to the clubhouse at its current location.  

3. If 9 and 10 today played as they originally played as 1 and 18, would the course be as strong today with 10 as a starter and 9 as a finisher?


I believe # 1 is a better first hole and # 18 is the best possible finishing hole.

I believe that CBM always intended the golf course to play that way, but, for expediency, the use of the Shinnecock Inn made # 10 a practical starting hole until the clubhouse could be completed in its present location.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

EXCELLENT, fantastic summary.  OK, so I get that a running inventory of all possible "what the hell" shots at NGLA is way too much to expect.  Just if you could factor in one or two along with the RIGHT ways to try to play the holes, that would be cool.

For example.... is it ever possible, or even attemptable, for you to drive the green on 1?  Would that qualify as a what the hell, maybe in a downwind or something?

I've driven the 1st green.

And, I'd like to keep trying to drive the 1st green.

My swing speed is the only thing that prevents me from doing so.

[Ian_L]

Patrick, for those of us who haven't been there, could you give us a sense of what kind of golfer usually plays the red vs. the green tees?  Thanks.

[Tom Huckaby]

Patrick:

EXCELLENT, fantastic summary.  OK, so I get that a running inventory of all possible "what the hell" shots at NGLA is way too much to expect.  Just if you could factor in one or two along with the RIGHT ways to try to play the holes, that would be cool.

For example.... is it ever possible, or even attemptable, for you to drive the green on 1?  Would that qualify as a what the hell, maybe in a downwind or something?

I've driven the 1st green.

And, I'd like to keep trying to drive the 1st green.

My swing speed is the only thing that prevents me from doing so.

Sadly that seems to occur to us all.
 

But is it at any time an unwise play?

I guess we wait until #2 for more what the hell shots, at least off the tee.  No?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

George,

That's very interesting.

Will the area in the rectangles be mowed to fairway height making the bunker centerline bunker ?

[Bradley Anderson]

Hole 1







(Patrick, if different view or smaller images would be better, let me know. I've been gradually pulling together "bird's eye view" images of various courses and NGLA is one of them.)

Charlie,

You would be doing this site a huge Huge HUGE favor if you added a picture like this, with copy of Patricks words corresponding to each of his hole by hole posts. And if you could also find a way to add arrows, illustrating his lines of attack, that would put this thread over the top! That would make this one of the best threads ever on this site. Oh, and the arrows should be green.  

[George_Bahto]

"George,

That's very interesting.

Will the area in the rectangles be mowed to fairway height making the bunker centerline bunker ?"

Unless he's already done it, the thinking was that since people are driving the ball further, it would be good to cut the rough out on the right and have tight lies in that entire area, which to me is a tougher shot for most golfers than them sliding a wedge under a lie I the rough

 ..............  short cropped even up the hill to the right of the right greenside bunker as well as on top in that whole area by that 2nd tee.

Also the cart traffic pattern has been re-routed so carts now go around the left of #1 green to the 2nd tee which has been divided into two to get rid of the runway look

Pat - the original routing of the course was designed to be starting on the present 10th - changed after the Shinnecock Inn burned down during the first year of construction,

yes, then additional property was  purchased and the clubhouse relocated (for the better)

personally I like playing the course starting on the present 10th

[George_Bahto]

for those who have not been there, the deep hollow on the right of this picture is where you often end up and from there you are totally blind to the green, the flag and most other things on earth

I'm not sure there is any really great place to land the ball on this right to left tilted fairway

Pat sorry to jump in