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Mike Sweeney

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #50 on: February 05, 2009, 08:24:14 PM »
Patrick, for those of us who haven't been there, could you give us a sense of what kind of golfer usually plays the red vs. the green tees?  Thanks.

I will state simply for my own game (8-12 handicap depending on timing of the season, with basic decent but certainly not long player length off the tee) that the course is playable from the back tees when it is firm. If it is windy and/or soft I prefer to play it from the member tees. 

I would never play Shinnecock/Atlantic/The Bridge from the back.

When they play the National Singles tournament, it is my understanding (I have not played) that Seniors (such as Patrick  ;) ) play from the member tees and the rest of us  :D play from the back.

As a member once stated to me, it would be a rare day that you shoot your worst round at National. Wide fairways, good caddies and basically no OB allow you to often play with one ball.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #51 on: February 05, 2009, 08:30:46 PM »
It's really difficult to count the bunkers on the course and of course they have been changed over the years but there are somwhere between 360-366 bunkers on the course

wow!  i had no idea of that!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

David Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #52 on: February 05, 2009, 08:55:27 PM »
I'm tickled to be seeing these pics and reading the descriptions! This is why I love this place!
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

Charlie Goerges

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Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #53 on: February 05, 2009, 09:13:31 PM »

Charlie,

You would be doing this site a huge Huge HUGE favor if you added a picture like this, with copy of Patricks words corresponding to each of his hole by hole posts. And if you could also find a way to add arrows, illustrating his lines of attack, that would put this thread over the top! That would make this one of the best threads ever on this site. Oh, and the arrows should be green.  :)


I've already corresponded with Patrick, he's going to try to include the images in his posts. As for the arrows, it can be done pretty easily because photobucket has a feature where you can draw on the image (unfortunately only the account holder can do it). If anyone knows of a way to let Patrick draw on the images without having to download them, could you let me know?

At any rate, I'm over half done with the holes, so you should get your wish.

And the arrows can be green.  ;D
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #54 on: February 05, 2009, 10:42:14 PM »
If you go over the green on the left this is where you will be trying to recover from.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2009, 11:15:18 PM »
If you go over the green on the left this is where you will be trying to recover from.

As I recall, it's pretty easy to get in there from the right rough.  >:(

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2009, 12:03:18 AM »
These pictures are blowing my mind...it looks like a magical course and setting.  Is the road as in play as it appears in the aerials?
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:45:40 AM by Bryon Vincent »
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2009, 05:43:52 AM »
"When they play the National Singles tournament, it is my understanding (I have not played) that Seniors (such as Patrick  :D  ) play from the member tees and the rest of us   ;) play from the back."



Hold on a second there Mike Sweeney-Todd!

While I think Patrick Mucci is a couple of years older than Methuselah, he has been known to generally play in the Mid-Am division of the National Singles Tournament which is amazing and just another example of Pat's unusual outlook and approach to the game sometimes.

I guess within reason if one is a senior golfer he does have the option of electing to qualify and play in the Mid-Am divsion (from the back tees) BEFORE teeing off in qualifying. I've only seen one other player do that but in the Crump Cup when we all used to have to qualify from the same tees anyway, so that was an election AFTER qualifying, not before, and was probably inspired by his good qualifying score and the option of playing in the "Crump Cup" flight rather than the Senior top flight. In the National Singles Tournament those of senior age electing to play in the Senior's Division do play from the members tees though, not the back tees like the Mid-Am division.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 05:51:20 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2009, 09:38:51 AM »
TEPaul & Mike Sweeney,

I only played in the Senior division one time, in 2004 when I was in the last stages of my post operative chemo-therapy, had lost 70 pounds, was weak, had no equilibrium and couldn't hit the ball very far.

All other times I've played in the regular division.
There's a Senior Division and a regular division, there is no Mid-am division.

TEPaul,

I liked it better when everyone played from the same tees and you could declare which division you wanted to play in AFTER the round.  I always opted for the regular division.  Call it a form of denial with respect to the aging process.

The Travis at GCGC used to be the same way.

Now, you have to declare before teeing off since they use two sets of tees.

Bryon,

It is in play, but, you have to hit a pretty bad shot to get over there, or you've elected to play to the left/far left and have pulled or hooked the ball slightly.

Thats why I like aiming at the left corner of that bunker while trying to draw the ball.

Getting to the upslope is important for me, as it allows me to hit a variety of shots to a variety of hole locations if I"ve been fortunate enough to avoid the blind approach.

With that green segmented by spines/plateaus and bowls you don't want to miss it with your approach, since recovering to that section of the green where the hole has been cut can be extremely difficult, and, even if you recover ON the green, you're still liable to three or four putt depending upon hole location and where your recovery shot ends up.

If someone could post a picture that shows the wonderful contours in that green it would help those that have never seen NGLA appreciate the relationship of the drive to the approach in terms of risk/reward and challenge

Ed Oden

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2009, 09:43:24 AM »
These pictures are blowing my mind...it looks like a magical course and setting.  Is the road as in play as it appears in the aerials?

I have only played NGLA once so my comments should be viewed with the light of inexperience.  But take a look at the angle of the tee box in the aerial and also at the first picture posted by John Mayhugh in post #8.  You are being steered toward a "conservative" line to the right that leads to the fat of the fairway.  It takes some faith, guts and an encouraging caddie to take an "aggressive" line to the left since you can't see fairway, the clubhouse looms and you know the parking lot is down there somewhere.  That line just doesn't fit the eye at all.  I'm guessing it takes a few plays to trust it.  But if I ever get the chance to return, I will certainly go this route since I suspect it may actually be the safest line if you can just avoid a snap hook. 

Ed

Patrick_Mucci

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2009, 10:01:01 AM »
Ed Oden,

There was a shifting in the alignment of the 1st tee when the new pro shop was constructed.

It used to align slightly more to the left, which I liked.

Now, as you point out, it takes a greater deviation from the center line of the tee to get to the DZ I prefer, it's a more difficult shot, for me, especially since I've always had alignment difficulties. 

Good observation.

Tom Huckaby

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2009, 10:09:52 AM »
I need to say this publicly:

Pat Mucci, you are a golf STUD.  Oh I knew it before.. but reading these tales of the NGLA tournaments... man I just needed to say it again.

Don't get too cocky though - you're still eristic as all hell.

 ;D

BTW, if and when we move to #2, will you update the thread title to say "now discussing hole 2" (as others have like this), or start a new thread?  One way or the other this all MUST be captured for posterity....

TH

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2009, 10:17:59 AM »
I thought there was a ban on new NGLA threads. >:(
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Tom Huckaby

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2009, 10:19:02 AM »
I thought there was a ban on new NGLA threads. >:(

Yeah.. good call... but man there needs to be an exception made for this.  Or at least that's my vote.

 ;D

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #64 on: February 06, 2009, 10:22:26 AM »
some - repeat, some - of the undultions on 1-green ............ my first impression of it still holds - it's like the back of a large turtle

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

JMEvensky

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #65 on: February 06, 2009, 10:25:53 AM »
I need to say this publicly:

Pat Mucci, you are a golf STUD.  Oh I knew it before.. but reading these tales of the NGLA tournaments... man I just needed to say it again.

Don't get too cocky though - you're still eristic as all hell.

 ;D

BTW, if and when we move to #2, will you update the thread title to say "now discussing hole 2" (as others have like this), or start a new thread?  One way or the other this all MUST be captured for posterity....

TH

Pat,thanks for taking the time to do this.

TH,you can't imagine how much I wish I hadn't used the word "eristic"-even though it is pretty damn accurate.

Tom Huckaby

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #66 on: February 06, 2009, 10:28:27 AM »
JME, pshaw!  Be proud!  Do you realize how hard it is to perfectly capture a man in one word?

 ;D

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #67 on: February 06, 2009, 10:32:25 AM »
George and Pat:

I just completed "The Evangelist of Golf," a terrific read on Macdonald and NGLA in particular. I can't recall discussions in the book of the size of the 1st green. How big -- roughly/ballpark -- is the green? How many realistic pin positions are there (meaning, ones that are significantly different from each other)? Looks like a terrific green.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #68 on: February 06, 2009, 11:46:29 AM »
Phil - google earth shows about 117' deep X (on average) about 80' wide

not sure about the number of pins but not a lot but I'll ask

thanks about the book
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #69 on: February 06, 2009, 12:38:10 PM »
Phil:

If you're talking different pinnable sections on that green, I'd say four, maybe five. Things have probably changed a bit recently since they softened up the back and sort of took out that left back bowl in there. In other words more pinnability is obviously possible back there now. One of the most interesting and challenging shot values I've ever seen on any golf course anywhere was trying to get an approach shot back into that old back left bowl. You almost had to depend on straight luck the margin for error was so slim. Even putting it back in there from the front or right side was amazingly difficult. Basically the only way to do it was to hit or run it on a very narrow ridge on its right side.

The last Singles tournament I played in they were just about to pin the mid-left bowl and I believe it was the first time they tried that at that speed. It was really fun to test it a bunch about 6:30 am with the supers.

GeorgeB:

I really want to find that very early photo again of that first green with those 3-4 players on it. Again, maybe the angle was odd but the contours just didn't seem similar to the way they are now. I'm certainly not saying he did it but it would not surprise me if it was changed significantly from the way it was originally if it wasn't Perry Maxwell that did it. If he did it I'd say it's really likely he did it around 1939 (and after that catastrophic 1938 huricane) and right around the time or just after Macdonald died. He was out there at that point doing some other green redesign stuff.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 12:50:54 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #70 on: February 06, 2009, 07:00:33 PM »
George and Pat:

I just completed "The Evangelist of Golf," a terrific read on Macdonald and NGLA in particular. I can't recall discussions in the book of the size of the 1st green. How big -- roughly/ballpark -- is the green? How many realistic pin positions are there (meaning, ones that are significantly different from each other)? Looks like a terrific green.


Phil,

It's about 6,000 sq/ft.

I think there are more than 4 to 5 good hole locations.

Many of them are treacherous and like most highly contoured greens, the higher their pace, the fewer the viable hole locations.

TEPaul

Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #71 on: February 06, 2009, 07:08:17 PM »
Hey Pat or George:

I've never tried to use Google Earth to measure anything so would you mind telling me how far the direct line from #1 tee to #2 green is?  Thanks

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #72 on: February 06, 2009, 07:09:29 PM »
Great thread so far Pat....onto #2?

The suspense is palpable.  When this course looks awesome just from looking at it via the aerials, thats when I know I'll always be jonesing more pics.  ;)

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #73 on: February 06, 2009, 07:12:41 PM »
Hey Pat or George:

I've never tried to use Google Earth to measure anything so would you mind telling me how far the direct line from #1 tee to #2 green is?  Thanks

Tom Paul,

Straight as a sober crow flies, its 452 yards from the middle of 1 tee to the middle of 2 green.

Kalen

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: NGLA - Golf's enchanted journey
« Reply #74 on: February 06, 2009, 09:41:32 PM »
Pins on the first green:

Pat and Phil, right from the super's mouth, who I'm sure check the site but doesn't post for the obvious reasons:

" ..... 9 or 10 most on the front shelf and right side.  One in the bowl left and 2-3 in the back left."
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson