[Lawrence Largent]

A friend of mine had a conversation with a few Philly guys about the Dormie Club.  They were playing in a Tournament at Chechessee and the gentleman said the Dormie Club had been put on the shelf.  They also said the  C & C guys had been pulled for lack of payment.  I found this to be odd knowing that the group had been keeping up with this project.

Lawrence

[PCCraig]

It sure looked like the course was almost done according to the pictures Ran posted a few months ago. It would be a bummer.

I suppose the RE market would have to be a major factor...

[John Moore II]

Well, some holes may be near complete, but so far as I remember, they were doing this work like 6 holes at a time. So, it may be that only part of the course is done. But there was a significant amount of work complete.

Ummmm...Going back to the disaster surrounding a post like this dealing with Black Rock, has there been any further research done to determine the validity of the claims of these folks from Philly?? Or is this just second and third hand information? I think this is a valid question since it has a great impact on the club itself and the golf industry in Pinehurst in general.

[Joel_Stewart]

Sad news if true. 

I wonder if the private club model could be scrapped and replaced with public if the economics would make more sense?  Seems if #2 could get $200 per round, then possibly this course with all of it's potential may be able to get $100+ for a round.

[brad_miller]

Joel, difficult to image a public if you assume you need $10 dollars of greens fee for each $ million of cost.

The Dormie project is shut down as construction halted last fall. Unfortunately, Dormie owes money to contractors including C&C and there are liens on property. Members are leaving and taking their money out of escrow. This is a great loss as all the ground reports had been this would be a phenomenal course/club. I do understand that they are maintaining the few finished holes that are out there. Let’s hope better times lie ahead for Dormie….
 
I market for six figure membership is currently dormie.
 

[Garland Bayley]

WOW. My condolences to Ran.

[Mike Hendren]

Nice photographs on this previous thread.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,37185.35.html

[Steve Sayre]

Sad news if true. 

I wonder if the private club model could be scrapped and replaced with public if the economics would make more sense?  Seems if #2 could get $200 per round, then possibly this course with all of it's potential may be able to get $100+ for a round.

Joel, #2 is currently $410 green fee for outside play. With the likely shrinkage in corporate outings, it will be interesting to see if demand holds up at this price point.

[Tom Dunne]

This project *needs* to see the light of day. My wife and I played the seven hole loop back in December with two Morrissett brothers and one of the gentlemen affiliated with the club and it was absolutely awesome. If the rest of the holes turn out as well as the ones I saw, Dormie will be the Real Deal.

Given the anticipated model of being a high-end club with a caddie program, Dormie was designed without cart paths. The look is clean and as natural as can be. Whatever happens next, I hope that aspect of it is preserved.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel, difficult to image a public if you assume you need $10 dollars of greens fee for each $ million of cost.

I understand that but if it could be purchased for cents on the dollars then it may make sense?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Does anyone have first hand info? 

[Jeff Loh]

Say it aint so.....got a chance to play some holes at Dormie on New Years Eve.
Outstanding property and some wonderful golf. If/when it gets finished people will come.

[Mike Sweeney]

I heard over the weekend that one of the key principals of Dormie Club suffered a heart attack. If that is true, I hope he is okay, and let's get the full story before we go too far.

Dormie sounds like it has the potential to be a special place, and I remind people that we have seen this stuff before. Yes, it is a different era, but maybe that just gives us different solutions:

"And as we have documented, the project encountered numerous delays and setbacks. At the start it was hoped the course would be ready in a little over a year, but five years later only fourteen holes were finished and even those had serious maintenance issues. With world war raging and everything on hold, there were no prospects for the completion any time soon. To make matters worse, Crump had spent a fortune to get this point. If his money was not exhausted, it was nearly exhausted.

By 1921 eighteen holes were in play, and the following year the golf course was in a perfected state thanks to Alison’s refinements. Four years after his death, and nearly a decade after the project began, George Crump’s dream was finally realized."



The above is from Tom MacWood's essay on Crump and Pine Valley.

Personally I am sick of this end of the world stuff and golf will never be the same. Perhaps it will be better!

[Jeff Loh]

Mike
Good point.......I understand there is a famous course in Georgia that "forgot" to pay the architect.

[RSLivingston_III]

I want to see it completed. After viewing the handful of holes that were done last summer, I was ready to join.

[Mike Sweeney]

I want to see it completed. After viewing the handful of holes that were done last summer, I was ready to join.

That's one.

Okay, here goes. As Brad said above, the era of the big ticket private club is over. I never have had any interest in belonging to ANY club where I feel like I have to go to all the time in order to get some sort of value from my membership. This exclusive stuff in general is BS. This exclusive stuff because it has a big number attached to it is REALLY BS.

Now if walking only, no rakes, small clubhouse, playing in less than 4 hours is exclusive, then call me a snob.

Is it possible to apply The Prairie Club model to a national membership (Ran has to pay more as a local!), (lower initiation, $2000 dues which includes a $1000 credit on your first visit) 1000 members with the following vision which probably needs a few tweaks:

_________________________________________________________________

From http://www.golfclubatlas.com/carthageclub1.html

The Carthage Club

There will be one set of tees. The total yardage will be around 6200. There will be no 'par.'

The need to hunt for golf balls will be minimal - there will be little rough. There will be as little irrigation as is possible. The fairways will play firm and fast. The North Carolina summer heat requires too much water to keep the grass alive in August, so the course will be shut for that month.

The fairways will be broad. Bunkers will be placed at a variety of angles to the golfer. Some will be shallow but plenty will be deep and penal (i.e. true hazards). Combined with the greens, the bunkering will provide the strategic interest. There will be no water hazards.

The property will be elevated and exposed to the wind. It will be essentially treeless. The course itself will occupy close to 180 acres. There will be plenty of room between the neighboring holes but little room between the green and following tee. Overall, the course and the holes will promote a sense of spaciousness.

The greens will differ a significant amount in size and contour. The relatively small membership of 250 golfers allows latitude in having a couple of very small sub-2,500 sq.ft. greens where appropriate but a green or two may run up to 9,000 sq. ft as well. Over time, we may be able to say we have seen someone putt off each green.

The majority of the time spent on conditioning will be on the green complexes. There will be little irrigation. The area within a thirty yard radius of the green will be keep at fairway height. The lies will be tight. The conditioning will be scruffy (i.e natural) other than the prepared areas.
The intent is for the course to play equally well year around, another reason the course needs to be shut during the oppressively hot month of August.

If sustainable, a small caddie program will exist but otherwise, trolleys will be encouraged. Four ball matches will be discouraged. Two ball and foursome play will be the norm. A round will average under three hours.

Members will be encouraged to bring their children and dogs.

There will be a modest clubhouse. There will be no other activities on offer other than golf.

The cost to build the course will be small as well, as the sandy soil is ideal and not much of it will be moved. We hope to acquire 275 acres for under two million dollars, so the membership fee structure will be reasonable.

This then constitutes an ideal course and club. We will see you there.

_________________________________________________________________

Ran's original vision of The Carthage Club really attracted me to this website. Back when there were comments to the course reviews, I asked to join before I even had a GCA login ID.

I love the concept of The Prairie Club, but it is just too hard for me to get to at this stage of life. Now an 11 month course in Pinehurst where I can leave in the morning and play in the afternoon.....

There is one guy I know in Pinehurst that could rally the troops. Get Crenshaw to buy a membership. Get Olgivy to buy a membership (see Whisper Rock). Make Doak pay too, he's got money now. 

If the membership will accept playing through me and my Autistic son once in a while, I am in!

Ran, get to work!

[Joe Hancock]

The need to hunt for golf balls will be minimal - there will be little rough. There will be as little irrigation as is possible. The fairways will play firm and fast. The North Carolina summer heat requires too much water to keep the grass alive in August, so the course will be shut for that month.

I'm sorry, but as cool as this club would/ will be, this is a very odd thing to put in a club mandate. I would like to know who was consulted to come up with such a notion.

I was the super at a club in NC for 6 years. Our fairways had ZERO irrigation devices...no sprinklers, no quick couplers...nothing. The grass did just fine. With cart traffic. With little fertility.

Of course, the statement could be referring to bentgrass greens, but it doesn't read that way.

Joe

[Scott_Burroughs]

Joe,

And not to mention that July is technically hotter than August is in NC.....but as you might have been alluding to, rain can be abundant in the summer months, with the hit-and-miss thunderstorms, which can occur almost every day.

Regardless, some of us don't mind the heat.  There's also mornings. 

Wait, even if the grass were 'dead' (or would it be dormant?), you can still play on it.  We do all winter long when it is truly dormant.



As for the high-end golf development industry, that makes Doak's Wicked Pony, DLIII's Mexico (Cabo?) course, and C&C's Dormie Club all halted.  All appeared to be special.  DLIII & Gil Hanse's Victory Lane in Georgia never started construction last year (as was originally planned).

[Tom_Doak]

Scott:

I think each of the projects you mentioned have different issues affecting them ... however their common problem is that there is no readily available back-up plan right now, because finding new money (from a bank OR from private investment) for a golf course project is almost impossible right now.

PS  These are not the only ones, unfortunately.  I am very thankful that we have two being completed right now; it would have been easy to hold off on them, too.

[Mike Sweeney]

As I got a few questions via IM, I shall try to clarify my post above.

The Carthage Club was/is Ran's fantasy golf course located in Pinehurst. The "review" by Ran which I copied in bold in my post above is located here:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/carthageclub1.html

The Prairie Club is the very real yet to be opened golf retreat being built in Northern Nebraska:

http://www.theprairieclub.com/

The Prairie Club has built a yet to be proven however more reasonable business model in the current world. It has smaller economic numbers and a larger membership base since most people will be lucky to get there twice a year.

My suggestion to the current owners and members of The Dormie Club is to take the spirit of The Carthage Club and take the economic model of The Prairie Club (smaller economic numbers, more members) and apply them to the now delayed Dormie Club.

I don't know the specific cost to drill down on the model, just throwing out the concept of a model. That model would be "Scottish/Irish/English" with a larger membership since it would be a national membership for most members.

A three day trip to Pinehust with Dormie as the anchor, #2 and Tobacco Road in the mix twice a year sounds like an interesting place to be a member, at least to me.

If you can add a playing atmosphere and membership similar to Whisper Rock, all the better. Not easy to pull off, but sound like fun.

[Michael Whitaker]

Mike - I am becoming more and more enamored with the model that charges a smaller joining/membership fee with a nominal useage charge for each day's play. Caledonia/True Blue offers a membership that is around 2K per year with a $25 per round playing fee. Something like that on a private club model could attract a lot of members to the right club.

[Jeff Loh]

Mike
The only thing you forgot is Mid-Pines and Pine Needles......36 a day here we come.
Folks.....Mr Sweeney is on a roll here. Sounds like the synthesis of the two aforementioned clubs is something to shoot for with the Dormie. What are the real/potential problems with such a model?

[PCCraig]

Mike
The only thing you forgot is Mid-Pines and Pine Needles......36 a day here we come.
Folks.....Mr Sweeney is on a roll here. Sounds like the synthesis of the two aforementioned clubs is something to shoot for with the Dormie. What are the real/potential problems with such a model?

I would say (without any first hand knowledge of the situation) that standing in the way is the owner's desire to make a profit (or at least now break even). In a perfect world that would/could have been the owner's first desire in building the club.

However I suspect that the business model of building a private destination golf club can't work in an area like Pinehurst without selling homesites because just the purchase of the land and building of the golf course would cost too much. In order for Mr Sweeney's model to work you would have to have an owner that is so rich he doesn't care, land already available, and the owner not really caring who plays the course/becomes a member. (IE if Rich Harvest Farms sold memberships at $2M/each).

[Michael Blake]

This thread is heading down a slippery slope, just as other ones have that 'reported' about failing clubs.

I hope Ran or someone else involved with the club will post to clarify.

And apologies in advance if any of the previous posters are, in fact, involved with the club and know for certain what has happened.

[Mark Bourgeois]

The need to hunt for golf balls will be minimal - there will be little rough. There will be as little irrigation as is possible. The fairways will play firm and fast. The North Carolina summer heat requires too much water to keep the grass alive in August, so the course will be shut for that month.

I'm sorry, but as cool as this club would/ will be, this is a very odd thing to put in a club mandate. I would like to know who was consulted to come up with such a notion.

I was the super at a club in NC for 6 years. Our fairways had ZERO irrigation devices...no sprinklers, no quick couplers...nothing. The grass did just fine. With cart traffic. With little fertility.

Of course, the statement could be referring to bentgrass greens, but it doesn't read that way.

Joe

Good news, Mike.  We've found a super.

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