Have modern drainage techniques

[Patrick_Mucci]

eliminated or reduced the use of elevated and/or domed greens ?

Could this be why we don't see more Pinehurst # 2/Seminole greens and green complexes ?

[Greg Chambers]

I think that is a big absolutely.  Although I know archies still try to get surface water to run off naturally, it doesn't have to surface drain as quickly, given the root zones and drainage systems of modern green constructions.  This, of course, is in combination with todays green speeds, and you tend to get much flatter greens than what you used to see, overall, in modern designs.  There are, of course, exceptions.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I think what has reduced the number of crowned greens is the ease of moving earth generally.

Crowned greens were the byproduct of raising a green from a flat site.  In those days ONLY the green was built up, and it made more sense to drain it in multiple directions than just to the front or one side.

In modern design, architects with L.A. training have been taught to drain a green in multiple directions.  But, when they get a flat site, they tend to build up an area next to the green to "tie in" the contours, thus preventing them from building a truly crowned green in the Ross mode.

Please note, however, that Ross did not always build crowned greens, and the ones he is most famous for have become exaggerated over the years due to heavy sand topdressing, which has more effect on a crowned green than a tilted one.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Haven't modern drainage practices nullified, to a degree, the need to elevate a green ?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Crowned greens are one of the best defenses against modern technology.  They require the player to truly control his golf ball, especially the flight and spin.  Adding length does nothing to good players.....give them a short iron to a crowned green and the heart starts to beat a little faster. 

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I am not sure exactly what you're thinking of under "modern drainage techniques," but I suppose modern advances let you build a green anywhere you want.

Still, most architects who know what they're doing (modern or classic) tend to pick out green sites on a crown or a saddle, so they don't have to deflect a bunch of water away from them.  Those downhill/uphill par-4 holes that so many people lament?  That's just a function of locating greens on high points, where the surface drainage mostly goes away from them.  Seminole and Pinehurst have some of those, too.

But you're still only likely to see a crowned green on relatively flat land.  The only exception I can think of quickly is High Pointe, which has two very crowned greens sited right on a natural crown.

[John Moore II]

It has been said on here numerous times that the domed greens seen currently at Pinehurst #2 are not 'native' to the design, meaning the greens, in the present form, were not the greens designed by Ross himself. It has been noted that the present contours were happened after years of topdressing and other work. I would wonder how different the greens were when they were first built. (I have never been on the property at Seminole to comment about those greens) Having also seen the greens at Mid Pines (a course noted to be one of the most original Ross courses, especially in the Pinehurst area) that are far less contoured and far less likely to drain off many sides, as supposed here.

Now, that being said, I certainly think that modern, subsurface drainage would reduce the need for run-off areas and multiple drainage features put into the greens. But based on what I know about the greens at Pinehurst #2, I would wonder how many of the features we praise in and around those greens are truly designed by Mr. Ross. (I will also note, that those dominant run-off features seen on #2 are not nearly as pronounced on #1, #3, Pine Needles, Southern Pines GC and Wilmington GC)

[Jeff_Brauer]

There is still a need to raise greens (or lower surrounds) in many cases.  Water running off site on to greens is still a no no, if not for the potential sogginess, then to eliminate run on of the chemical inputs that might be used off the green, but which can't be used on the green.

I think tile drains have been in use as long as greens have been built, albeit, not herringbone systems like used on USGA and other sand greens.  They don't eliminate the need for surface drainage.