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Tom_Doak

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #75 on: January 24, 2009, 04:30:55 PM »
Forrest:

Does the ASGCA keep up with those "credits" for every course, or do they just stop after the architect has his list of five, with credit for his future work maybe to be passed down the line to other associates who apply for membership?

Or say one of my associates wanted to apply ... how the hell would you decide whether they deserved PRIMARY credit for one of the courses with my name on it, or whether I did?


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #76 on: January 24, 2009, 05:03:11 PM »
Tom — I believe the list is updated whenever "it's time". For example, I updated my list a few years ago to reflect more recent courses. To my knowledge you will not find duplicate courses among those listed on each member's profile pages. For example, Mike Hurdzan lists courses he did and Dana Fry lists his work. The same course (to my knowledge) does not appear twice.

How is "primary responsibility" determined? For new applicants there is a list of components and work scope. For each area — routing, approvals, field work, etc. — the client, project manager and the course evaluator (an ASGCA members who visit the course) assign values indicating the percentage of responsibility the applicant had in each specific area. In some cases it may be 100%, 70% (maybe when a routing was jointly devised...or, maybe a land planner had significant input and this is even less), 50% (such as when there is a civil engineer who works out a lot of the drainage), and even 0% (when there may be no landscaping at all, such as a natural site with no new plantings.) The culmination of this is an assessment of whether the individual had "primary responsibility" of design for the course.

In your case, any one of your associates would need to demonstrate — with the client, project manager and an independent evaluator confirming the facts — that they did a majority of the work (overall) and rightly deserve to claim the course for the purpose of application. If there were questions, they would likely be directed to you, owners or anyone involved in the work who could help sort it out.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:05:27 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #77 on: January 24, 2009, 05:36:07 PM »
Its hard to follow Forrest...well it really isn't because I like to follow him because I can learn stuff and he is a nice guy...but, I'm not sure what I was going to say...ahh..m...Tom, what I think the ASGCA is looking for in a candidate is a person who has the abilities to design a complete golf course from A to Z.

If you have someone on your staff that might want to apply, he should be the one generally most responsible for the land plan and routing, either be the one that draws or oversees the working drawings....grading and drainage, grassing, construction details and specs, permitting considerations, cost and budget estimates, construction scheduling etc.

He should be able to oversee the site construction and be the point person responsible for executing the design in the field.

He should also be capable of overseeing grow in considerations with the superintendent......and all the while dealing with Client considerations.

This varies.....but generally this person should be someone that could design and build a complete golf course without your input.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 05:41:07 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Mike_Young

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #78 on: January 24, 2009, 05:48:26 PM »
Well.....I guess this topic sort of makes us know how the shapers for some of these projects feel ;D ;D ;D  ad seeing Lloyd cole post makes me realize how close this scenario is to the one of songwriter/singer....I am sure Kris Kristoferson was glad to get the royalties from Janice Jopln singing Me and Bobby McGee ;D 
In reality we are all whores...some of us are just better looking ;D ;D ;D ;D
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #79 on: January 24, 2009, 06:24:29 PM »
Are you calling Paul a whore? If so, he is a very classy one. And high priced, too.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2009, 06:38:39 PM »
 
                  

                          Thankfully it's not the same guy who wrote for this fella.  ;D

Keep going with this and pretty soon the attribution for who built the
golf-course-in-question is going to look like the credits at the end of a film.

If it's your name on the dotted line you deserve the credit or the blame, whichever is the case.

 

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Carl Rogers

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2009, 07:17:56 PM »
I thought this thread was started by (building) Architects, (my world).  If it was, the discussion would be about the same.

To learn how to design anything well, it takes a lot of years, a lot of thinking.  When those that take credit without paying the price, then this thread happens.

There are no shortcuts.

data is not information ... information is not knowledge ... knowledge is not wisdom ...

If the 'celebrity' really wants credibilty, then start at the bottom (cut grass or learn how to maintain equipment), become an intern (I imagine the compensation would be minimal but they do not need the money) for one of you GCA's.  Learn the art and the craft for 10 years or so.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 09:11:32 AM by Carl Rogers »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2009, 08:02:42 PM »
Jim K:

Thank you for your post.  I've been trying to point out for years that all the new history about who "really" designed what, misses the fundamental that you point out.

You could certainly do the entire film credits if you wanted to, and if you did, it would be VERY illuminating.  I would only insist that you treat all courses the same way.

Likewise, I would love to see the ASGCA's "percentages" on what % Tom Fazio or Jack Nicklaus (to name just two prominent architects who are members) did of a course that bears their name.  I'd really love to see their percentages on Sebonack; that would only prove that different people have different points of view.  :)

Bill_McBride

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Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2009, 08:20:53 PM »

The problem that originated on this thread started with the very first architect would decided he'd sell his soul for a few extra $$$.

But George, what if it was work with the golf pro getting most of the credit or not work at all?   ???

That's the way the industry works and there are but a handful of GCAs who don't work with a celebrity pro one way or another.  It's good news when the celeb actually gets involved, as we've heard from a number of responses on this interesting thread.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2009, 08:55:04 PM »

This is not just a problem in GCA, it endemic in design full stop – ops sorry the word over there is ‘period’ I believe.

As for dotted line – well it depends what dotted line you are referring to.

The debate is interesting and for me it is as always very simple, who ever undertakes the routing and location of the Greens in my book should be credited with being the designer. The guy on the CAD is not unless he is the same as the one who routed the course, nor is the guy who signs off the plans or drawings. Neither is the owner of the design company. Also let’s not get confused with the construction process which has nothing to do with design. 

It’s simply how we define the word designer. I have defined what I consider is the true designer, others may view it differently.

Some may consider this unimportant, they may have no use for this information, but history and those that follow a century late may want to know and it is our responsibility to provide that info or at the very least make it available in an unconfused state. If Colin did not design this course then it should be made clear exactly what his involvement was. I can’t believe it means producing a film type credit, that is plain daft, but if it resolves the problem then I would reluctantly vote for it.

We must consider future generations – it’s surely an obligation to record ones involvement to save future confusion and debates like Merion.

I presume each designer (well I hope) keeps a log of his own involvement on each course for posterity. 

This is not a question for us mere mortals, but needs to be addressed by the architects and designers world wide. Leave a clear legacy or confusion. The choice is ultimately in your hands and no one else.

That’s the real bottom line.

Melvyn


Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2009, 09:51:05 PM »
Of course it is also site specific. I have been involved in courses that nearly present themselves — very little formality in plans, simple approvals, and loads of field work. Conversely, some projects involving millions of cubic yards of earthmoving are highly complex engineering assignments that require an untold volume of CAD planning and detail.

I like Paul's explanation — a qualified golf course architect is someone who can put a whole course design together — start to finish. The caveat is, that for someone to call themselves a golf course designer, it is much more than a casual site visit or even a few. It is not consulting. It is not opinions. It is not a lunch and a few napkin sketches — even though such things are worthwhile.

I am most certainly of the opinion that it was not Monty following the completion of the course Desmond designed — now, whether Monty has acquired skills of a golf architect in the years following..........


« Last Edit: January 24, 2009, 09:55:58 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2009, 09:51:52 PM »
Melvyn,
I vote for some confusion, it will give future generations of GCA-philes something to do.  ;)

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #87 on: January 25, 2009, 01:27:50 AM »
Forrest:

Does the ASGCA keep up with those "credits" for every course, or do they just stop after the architect has his list of five, with credit for his future work maybe to be passed down the line to other associates who apply for membership?

Or say one of my associates wanted to apply ... how the hell would you decide whether they deserved PRIMARY credit for one of the courses with my name on it, or whether I did?



TD,

ASGCA has had long philosophical discussions on these kind of issues.  I do believe they keep up with the credits - if, say Art Hills has an associate apply, he/she cannot use credit for a course that some other associate has previously used.  BTW, while there is no official rule, unofficially, we prefer that the head of the firm applies and gets in first.  hint, hint.....then, then an ASGCA member who is head of a firm generally is allowed to dole out credit as he sees fit within the firm, with the presumption that one associate takes a lead role. 

When I was membership chairman, I fielded a lot of questions from our ultra honest members about whether associate "X" did enough of this or that to take primary responsibility.  So, whether in ASGCA, here, or in the general media (for guys like Brad Klien and Ron Whitten who care about such issues) the debate still carries a lot of value judgement, particularly in bigger offices where the work tends to get divvied up a lot more.

For that matter, with courses taking a dozen years or so between conception and permitting/funding/completion it gets REALLY hard to assign primary credit.  Cowboys, for instance was a dozen year project that was handled completely by one of my associates.  Colbert Hills and a few others started and one associate and I routed it, but then he left.  Some changes were made in the routing, etc. and I did the feature designs and another associate ended up working in the field there full time.  I have heard claims made by the now departed associate who did the bulk of the routing that he should get a share (or all, depending on who is telling me the story) of the credit, but should he, can he, when he wasn't there for any detail design?

As Jim says, all of those kind of questions - unless gca's write it down somewhere, may never be answered and some gca.com members 50 years from now will be having some hellish debates!  Take any golf course, and there are probably associates, shapers, contractors and general hangers on who have claimed credit at one point or another.  I get calls often from someone saying "I built that course" when in fact I know the designer and the contractors, and it turns out the guy was the seeding contractor, or something like that.

Short version - there are a lot of folks out there who want credit for designs they didn't do!  Why rail against the pros, who at least bring some percieved marketing value? 

Someone who has studied this, BTW, told me the other day that a pro's marketing value lasts about 18 months, which about jives with my experience.  Take MN, for instance. I am sure Deacon's Lodge got a first year boost from the Palmer name.  Giants Ridge and the Wilderness had to rely on other marketing, of course (except for the Legend, which did have Lanny's name attached) and also had strong first year play.  But, after that, golfers seek out value and fun - and the courses with the most rounds are the ones percieved that way, regardless of designers name.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #88 on: January 25, 2009, 05:43:51 AM »
We all know what the deal is.
Smoke... mirrors.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #89 on: January 25, 2009, 06:38:01 AM »

Jim, you said

Melvyn,
I vote for some confusion, it will give future generations of GCA-philes something to do.

Well Jim, I am not surprised because we have today the world we deserve because with attitudes like that we helped create it.

What a very generous bunch we are with such a great and toxic inheritance we leave for our grandchildren.

Design is exactly that DESIGN, lets not overcomplicate the issue. If we can’t decide who is to be credited for the real course design what a mess we have in Golf today.

But of course no one is to blame, the Teflon Society has produced the seeds for its own doom, do you hear, it’s own Doom.

Why do we have to make things so complicated?

So “We all know what the deal is” YES Tom. Honesty is what does and should spring to mind, but then that takes BALLS and COMMITMENT (not just loads of money). I thought these qualities were plentiful in Golf.
Please do not tell me I was wrong. It’s starting to look like Golf is a lot sicker that I originally believed.

From a non-confused guy who wants better for the next generations

Melvyn

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2009, 06:52:24 AM »
Forrest
You know Michael Graves?
I'm impressed, he was one of my heroes when practising as a younger (building) architect.

Ally
Apologies, right location but wrong course at Carton House! Close but no cigar.

Neil

Tim Liddy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2009, 07:36:54 AM »
All this money on marketing is fine when times are good. A million here or there does not make a big difference. I wonder how this economy will affect the “signature design”. As soon as the banks start loaning money again, it will be a good time for the “no names”.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2009, 08:55:33 AM »
Jeff: "...a pro's marketing value lasts about 18 months, which about jives with my experience."

I am not sure you mean to present this quite the way it sounds.

---

Neil: I met Michael many years ago, but just casually. Then, just after he became ill and paralyzed, I had occasion to meet him and discuss golf. Just a short time before his illness, he had taken up golf. He loves the game, but I imagine it is a bittersweet situation now — confined to bed and wheelchair he can only talk about the game he loves...but played just a few years. He is a fascinating man with a tremendous heart and one of the keenest minds I have ever been around. I hope to visit him this year, but my East trips seem fewer and fewer.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Chris Cupit

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2009, 08:55:51 AM »

ASGCA has had long philosophical discussions on these kind of issues.  I do believe they keep up with the credits - if, say Art Hills has an associate apply, he/she cannot use credit for a course that some other associate has previously used.  BTW, while there is no official rule, unofficially, we prefer that the head of the firm applies and gets in first.  hint, hint.....then, then an ASGCA member who is head of a firm generally is allowed to dole out credit as he sees fit within the firm, with the presumption that one associate takes a lead role. 

Someone who has studied this, BTW, told me the other day that a pro's marketing value lasts about 18 months, which about jives with my experience.  Take MN, for instance. I am sure Deacon's Lodge got a first year boost from the Palmer name.  Giants Ridge and the Wilderness had to rely on other marketing, of course (except for the Legend, which did have Lanny's name attached) and also had strong first year play.  But, after that, golfers seek out value and fun - and the courses with the most rounds are the ones percieved that way, regardless of designers name.

Very interesting.  I certainly agree with the notion of limited marketing appeal for a pro (at least most of them).  I can't believe the money paid to some guys by owners who think they have purchased some lasting value for their club.  In Atlanta, Michael Riley did Crooked Creek and Governors Town CLub and I think Curtis Strange was the name guy.  In a thousand years you could not get one person to associate Curtis Strange with either course.  Heck, today, I bet 50% of golfers playing those courses wouldn't know what decade he played golf in :o

As a former consumer in the architect "market" I was a little surprised to read about the "hints" of joining ASGCA.  When I started my quest to re-do my course I sent off for the info from ASGCA as the initials certainly caught my attention.  I now know that ASGCA is not certification per se but those initials after a guys' name certainly lend credibility to a layman like myself.  It's probally like PGA-Class A, CGCS, CMAA or any alphabet soup of letters following a name.

Anyway, the notion that subtle nudges are given to the big name guys who obviousley are going to want to increase the cache' of their firm by having their subordinates also in the ASGCA seems, well, a little unseemly.  Wouldn'tr there be an incentive for the head guy to fudge a little about a subordinates work in order to help "get him in the group" and if a subordinate maybe in a previous time or even under the big name truly did qualify through his or her work why should they face even a slightly higher hurdle?

After reviewing this let me say that in the few times I have had the pleasure of calling the ASGCA offices and in one case participating in a forum, the ASGCA has been incredibly helpful and professional.  Chad is a terrific guy BTW and I enjoyed the seminar I participated in with him--and I got a cool book too.      


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2009, 09:13:58 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on Yesterday at 04:30:55 pm
Forrest:

Does the ASGCA keep up with those "credits" for every course, or do they just stop after the architect has his list of five, with credit for his future work maybe to be passed down the line to other associates who apply for membership?

Or say one of my associates wanted to apply ... how the hell would you decide whether they deserved PRIMARY credit for one of the courses with my name on it, or whether I did?

Jeff Brauer added;


"TD,

ASGCA has had long philosophical discussions on these kind of issues.  I do believe they keep up with the credits - if, say Art Hills has an associate apply, he/she cannot use credit for a course that some other associate has previously used.  BTW, while there is no official rule, unofficially, we prefer that the head of the firm applies and gets in first.  hint, hint.....then, then an ASGCA member who is head of a firm generally is allowed to dole out credit as he sees fit within the firm, with the presumption that one associate takes a lead role......."


See....this just exemplifies my problem following the likes of Brauer or Richardson....they can always be so over my head!

Take the hint, hint stuff for example.

I'm the head of my own firm, but the closest thing I have to associates are probably free floating dis associations that I try to keep out of the business....and not promote them, or advance them in any way.....so ???

Oh......I think I get it!

Brauer, you sly dog you.....I know who you were referring to! ;D

....but I think I'm going to keep it as a little secret, just amoung me. 
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Carl Rogers

Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2009, 09:21:03 AM »
Will the current recession force a larger segment of the public to re-think what a celebrity endorsement represents?  

Was the divorce between Buick and Mr. Woods a sign of things to come?  What is Mr. Woods definition of 'full attention' to his design efforts?  How much quality and quantity of effort can he humanly put into the Tiger Woods Foundation?  Even for him, there are only 24 hours in a day.

What does Mr. Jordan know about Gatorade? ....

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2009, 09:52:04 AM »
I do think the investment in a "name" is a good angle of topic. Certainly not all "name" associations are ill-advised — we have great discussion on that here.

But, what would the financial and economic landscape of golf look like today if there had been $1 Billion* (with a "B") less spent on golf development in the past 25 years? ——— Or, $1 Billion spent on investments for golf other than a "name"?

---

*Math: $250,000 fee for "name" x 70 courses per year = $18,750,000 x 25 years = $ .5 Billion .... and then multiply this x 2 for debt service on the investment, additional costs and reoccurring fees (some cases) = $1 Billion (appx.)
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 10:10:31 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2009, 10:05:04 AM »

The problem that originated on this thread started with the very first architect would decided he'd sell his soul for a few extra $$$.

But George, what if it was work with the golf pro getting most of the credit or not work at all?   ???

Bill, that's exactly why I said I don't really blame the architect, I blame the others complicit in the deception. The architect is doing the work and most likely not rolling in cash like the other parties involved.

* EDIT: upon further reflection, my initial choice of words was poor - I sacrificed clarity for speed. Apologies to anyone offended.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 10:56:18 AM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2009, 10:18:27 AM »

As a former consumer in the architect "market" I was a little surprised to read about the "hints" of joining ASGCA.  When I started my quest to re-do my course I sent off for the info from ASGCA as the initials certainly caught my attention.  I now know that ASGCA is not certification per se but those initials after a guys' name certainly lend credibility to a layman like myself.  It's probally like PGA-Class A, CGCS, CMAA or any alphabet soup of letters following a name.

Anyway, the notion that subtle nudges are given to the big name guys who obviousley are going to want to increase the cache' of their firm by having their subordinates also in the ASGCA seems, well, a little unseemly.  Wouldn'tr there be an incentive for the head guy to fudge a little about a subordinates work in order to help "get him in the group" and if a subordinate maybe in a previous time or even under the big name truly did qualify through his or her work why should they face even a slightly higher hurdle?

After reviewing this let me say that in the few times I have had the pleasure of calling the ASGCA offices and in one case participating in a forum, the ASGCA has been incredibly helpful and professional.  Chad is a terrific guy BTW and I enjoyed the seminar I participated in with him--and I got a cool book too.      


Chris,

My "hint" remarks were directed squarely at TD that I think he should apply to ASGCA, and not any kind of official ASGCA policy. 

And, BTW, every case is individual.  We are proud to have Paul Cowley as a member, even though he applied as an associate of Davis Love III.  Frankly, in a case like that, we wouldn't likely allow DL3 in the group, because we think Paul really does most of his work.  We had Ed Seay and others from Palmer Course Design in before Palmer (who is actually an honorary member, I think) but JN was the first of the Nicklaus company in, and then others followed (Can't recall, but think Cupp and Morrish got in after they left JN)

In the case of Tom Doak, it would be a harder sell to think that Tom is just a "nameplate" who has too little involvement in his work to qualify.  And, we would, I think (but this is just me talking) unofficially prefer that he join before his associates.  That just seems to make more sense, doesn't it?

I don't think there is anything unseemly about the process.  As has been pointed out on other threads here, and in my earlier post here, there is an extensive review process including visiting courses with the applicant, interviews of owners, personal interviews of the applicant, comments from other members, etc.

Somewhere along the way, if a candidate was not the one doing the work it would come to light.   We have had associates of some big name firms denied, at least in their first application, because they were deemed to NOT have done the work that was claimed on their applications.  And, the heads of firms know that and don't usually try.  As mentioned in my post, when I was membership chair, I probably fielded more questions from the other direction - where some long time firm associate wasn't allowed to apply because the head guy wondered if he had done enough on each project to be deemed the associate who should get the credit.

From my experience as membership chairman 15 years ago, and from doing course inspections, I can tell you that a few simple questions can tell me how involved an associate was.  I personally like to ask, "What supplier did the greens mix come from" and if I get a blank look, I know that person wasn't really too involved in the typical way a design project manager would be.  One applicant came to the interview and mentioned that he contoured his greens at the "normal 10 to 12%" which basically ended his application process.

Chad is just representative of the professionalism in the group. 

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Rubbish of "Pro Golfer Designers"
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2009, 10:20:27 AM »
I do think the investment in a "name" is a good angle of topic. Certainly not all "name" associations are ill-advised — we have great discussion on that here.

But, what would the financial and economic landscape of golf look like today if there had been $1 Billion* (with a "B") less spent on golf development in the past 25 years? ——— Or, $1 Billion spent on investments for golf other than a "name"?

---

*Math: $250,000 fee for "name" x 70 courses per year = $18,750,000 x 25 years = $ .5 Billion .... and then multiply this x 2 for debt service on the investment, additional costs and reoccurring fees (some cases) = $1 Billion (appx.)

I tend to believe that courses would have had about $250K invested in better irrigation, drainage, perhaps cart paths, and certainly more sod.  Each of those would have probably made the course better initially and for all time!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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