Whisper Rock

[Bob_Huntley]

I will receive much opprobrium for this, but why on earth would a club such as this, give credence to raters?

I have had experience with raters at my club and find their advances for a free ride absolutely disgusting.

Bob

If that is the case, give their names to Topsy Siderowf at GD.  They do not want their panelists to have that kind of reputation. 

Tommy,

I am not in the business of telling anyone how to run their operation. All I can say is that  if your friend, Mr. Siderowf, does not want their panelists to have suxh a reputation, get them to pay the unaccompanied green fee at the club in question, either at GD's expense or that of the rater.

Bob

[John Kirk]

I am intrigued by Whisper Rock.

I tend to agree with Tom Fazio that the quality of modern golf courses is quite high.  Even if there were fewer standouts than another decade (the 1920s for instance), there are an awful lot of new Doak 6s out there.

If Whisper Rock's two courses offer significantly different experiences and both are good, solid golf courses, given the ambience and membership, isn't Whisper Rock one of the great clubs in the country?  I suppose if the membership was too large, crowded conditions might knock it down a notch, but full memberships have their charm.

[Tommy Williamsen]

duplicate

[Tommy Williamsen]

(from Bob Huntley)

Tommy,

I am not in the business of telling anyone how to run their operation. All I can say is that  if your friend, Mr. Siderowf, does not want their panelists to have suxh a reputation, get them to pay the unaccompanied green fee at the club in question, either at GD's expense or that of the rater.

Bob

Bob, I don't view that as telling them how to run their business.  If panelists are behaving inappropriately GD wants to know.  My comments were not to be flippant only helpful.  If you feel uncomfortable doing it then someone from the club management would be appropriate. They clean house regularly.   
If that is the case, give their names to Topsy Siderowf (woman) at GD.  They do not want their panelists to have that kind of reputation.
[/quote]

[Matt_Ward]

What's being missed on this thread / re: Whisper Rock -- is how a course of such distinction has been missed by so many "in the know" rating panelists.

Franklly, the 36-holes there belong at such a high level of fanfare -- the storyline goes far beyond the nature of the people there -- which is great that such good will exists. The original 18 has been tweaked a bit since I first played it and possibly others can share their thoughts on that.

And, for all the feelings TF engenders here on this site, his work at WR is well done and a worthy compliment to the original 18.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I have not played either course but it does seem that they have cught the attenion of many panelists.   ARIZONA
1 Forest   Highlands   G.C.      
                (Canyon) Flagstaff ★
2 The   Estancia   Club 
                Scottsdale ★
3 The   Stone   Canyon   C. 
                 Oro Valley
4 Pine   Canyon 
                   Flagstaff
 5 The   C.   at   Seven      
              Canyons Sedona
6 The   Rim   G.C. Payso°   (Renegade) Scottsdale
 
7 Desert   Forest   G.C. 
               Carefree
8 Forest   Highlands   G.C      
               (Meadow) Flagstaff
9 The   Golf   Club
              Scottsdale
10 Troon   G.   &   C.C. 
              Scottsdale
   *11 WHISPER ROCK GC      
               (Upper) Scottsdale
12 The   G.C.   at   Chaparral      
               Pines Payson
13 Quintero   G.   &   C.C.      
             Peoria
14 Desert   Highlands   G.C.    
Scottsdale
       *15 WHISPER ROCK GC.      
(Lower) Scottsdale
16 The   Gallery   G.C.      
(North) Marana
17 The   Mirabel   C. 
Scottsdale
18 Desert   Mountain   C.      
(Chiricahua) Scottsdale
19 Silverleaf   G.C. 
Scottsdale
20 Troon   North   G.C.      
(Monument) Scottsdale ◆
21 Talking   Rock   Club
Prescott
22 Blackstone   C.C. Peoria
23 Desert   Mountain   C.      
(Renegade) Scottsdale
24 Desert   Mountain   C.      
(Geronimo) Scottsdale
25 The   Gallery   G.C.      
(South)   Marana

They are in pretty good company.

[Rob Rigg]

WR got another Golf Channel plug yesterday.

Apparently Dan Quayle gets together with Gary and Phil for a $2XX Nassau every now and again.

The ex-Veep has skilz.

I heard that WR very much has a walking culture which is excellent.

True?

[Jim Thornton]

Rob-

WR certainly does have a walking culture.  In fact, hardly anyone ever rides.  They have an absolutely phenomenal caddie program at WR - a lot of the caddies are excellent players in their own right (ie, they have some mini tour players who are caddies).  Probably the best caddies of any course I've ever played - it adds to an already great experience.

Jim

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy W:

WR is better than what the GD ratings provide.

Candidly, the Digest ratings for AZ is mindboggling for what they consider top shelf stuff. The Estancia Club is a first rate place but Upper at WR is the better course in my mind. On the reverse front, the Lower at WR is one of the elite best courses I have played in the state -- easily a top five choice and I cannot comment on the improved tweaks that have been done in recent times. If those elements have improved the course even further then it should be rated even higher.

Courses rated at #4, #5 and #6, to name just three, are not as good as the GD rating suggests.
 
Tommy, I have played a very good share of AZ courses and although Digest does rate them both -- the Lower is the better of the two courses and the Fazio Upper may be the best he has designed in AZ.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Matt, I have not played in AZ for about ten years so I will defer to your expertise.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Sometimes I think YOUR thoughts are mindboggling too   

That said, I do have some disagreements with the list--but they are usually different issues from yours. I do think Chiricahua is too low, although I wouldn't put it #1 either.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Let me just say this -- Chiricahua and Outlaw at DM are well deserving in so many ways. I have always liked what Jack did at both. If you see Chiricahua as less than #1 so be it -- it's easily within the top ten for those who have played a solid sampling of courses in AZ. One can also elevate the likes of both courses at WR.

Candidly, Geronimo at DM is also well done although it's sad to see what happened at that layout with the demise of such holes as #13 and #14.

What's amazing is how recent openings get a major push but when you see a fantatic old time layout like Rancho de los Caballeros by Greg Nash get no attention it confirms for me that too many raters simply follow a very predictable pattern.

WR is a superb 36-hole complex -- it's one that many people have undervalued -- possibly future ratings will correct that clear error.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I posted detailed thoughts on both Outlaw and Chiricahua on the AZ 10 Best thread so I won't hijack this one too far--I do agree Chiricahua is top ten.

Not surprisingly compared to other comments, I've heard that the Lower is the more strategic of the two courses at Whisper Rock with the Upper being the more aesthetic.

[Dave Givnish]

It is interesting to see the media focus all at once on WR.  I don't think I remember it happening since the club opened.  Other than the guys on CBS, they have done a pretty good job of keeping off the radar.

I have been fortunate to play both courses several times.  I'd have to say that I would prefer to play Lower 8 times out of 10.  The Upper course has some better views but is not as interesting in my opinion.  There are a number of par 4s on the back that seem too much alike.

Looking at the list, it seems that GD's raters place more value on the clubhouse and amenities than on the course compared to Golf or Golfweek.  Estancia, Rim Club, FH Meadow, GCS, Chapparal Pines, Silverleaf, Blackstone are all examples of nice, pleasant courses that each should be no higher than #15 on that state list  (CP especially).  They all have great looking clubhouses though.

FH Canyon, Stone Canyon, Desert Forest, WR Lower, Troon, and DM Chiricahua are all more interesting and challenging courses in my opinion. 

[Andy Troeger]

The course that is missing from the list that should absolutely be there is We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. Forest Highlands Canyon is the only course in AZ that I'd put ahead of it from what I've seen. Perhaps it was too new the last time around, but it didn't do as well as I expected on the "Best New" list either.

Dave,
I would argue its more about views (with any of the panelists perhaps) than amenities, although given the ambiance category perhaps amenities do count for that. Most of these clubhouses have started to look the same to me--but they are all very nice and certainly expensive. I just don't have much use for them.

I do think Estancia and DM Chiricahua were pretty comparable courses though--I'd have them meet somewhere in the middle of their current rankings (but both in the top ten). I liked Rim Club better than Chaparral Pines because it has more width and thought Blackstone is underrated on the list by not being in the top twenty--its got more unique greens and features than some of the others. Stone Canyon drops a bit for me even though most of the course is very good because of the two par fives on the back nine that I thought were just awful holes. The front nine is spectacular.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Hold the phone in my way of thinking with this rush to elevate We-Ko-Pa / Saguaro to the level of the others mentioned. Like I said before -- head out to Wickenburg and play Los Caballeros and you'll see a layout from Greg Nash that few people really pay attention about.

If you really see Saguaro as the #2 course in the state so be it. I don't believe you have played Lower at WR and I agree with Dave on its qualities. If I had 10 rounds at the 36-hole complex I'd be close to the split that Dave mentioned -- although that's not to say the Upper is a waste of time. It is not and frankly can easily be mentioned in the same league -- in my mind it's better - than what TF did at The Estancia.

Unfortunately, too many raters simply spit out the fanfare tied to the most recent courses. I don't doubt the qualities of Saguaro but the bar among AZ private courses is quite high and quite high for a clear reason.

Chiricahua and Outlaw at DM are very well done and quite different courses from Jack. The design differentiation of both layouts is what makes them so appealing to me and both would be rated quite high. I still stand by what I said -- when Chiricahua is played from the tip tees -- ditto Outlaw -- you get superlative differences in terms of design approach and both work so well -- that doesn't even factor in the scenery -- both internal and external to the property.

[Bruce Leland]

Rob-

WR certainly does have a walking culture.  In fact, hardly anyone ever rides.  They have an absolutely phenomenal caddie program at WR - a lot of the caddies are excellent players in their own right (ie, they have some mini tour players who are caddies).  Probably the best caddies of any course I've ever played - it adds to an already great experience.

Jim

While I can't speak from personal experience playing WR (yet) I can speak to the quality of the caddie's  collective playing ability.  Three of their caddies play out of my home club, all have relinquished their amateur status and all are  +1 or better!  I'm looking forward to the opportunity to tee it up there soon.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Hold the phone in my way of thinking with this rush to elevate We-Ko-Pa / Saguaro to the level of the others mentioned. Like I said before -- head out to Wickenburg and play Los Caballeros and you'll see a layout from Greg Nash that few people really pay attention about.

If you really see Saguaro as the #2 course in the state so be it. I don't believe you have played Lower at WR and I agree with Dave on its qualities. If I had 10 rounds at the 36-hole complex I'd be close to the split that Dave mentioned -- although that's not to say the Upper is a waste of time. It is not and frankly can easily be mentioned in the same league -- in my mind it's better - than what TF did at The Estancia.

Unfortunately, too many raters simply spit out the fanfare tied to the most recent courses. I don't doubt the qualities of Saguaro but the bar among AZ private courses is quite high and quite high for a clear reason.

Chiricahua and Outlaw at DM are very well done and quite different courses from Jack. The design differentiation of both layouts is what makes them so appealing to me and both would be rated quite high. I still stand by what I said -- when Chiricahua is played from the tip tees -- ditto Outlaw -- you get superlative differences in terms of design approach and both work so well -- that doesn't even factor in the scenery -- both internal and external to the property.

I'll stand by what I said regarding Saguaro. I think the strategic nature of the design combined with the additional width and playability make it a more enjoyable round. I'm still missing the Whisper Rock courses and a few other courses but I'm very confident Saguaro wouldn't fall out of my top five in state even if I played them all.

I very much enjoyed playing Outlaw and Chiricahua on consecutive days--I would echo your comments. Outlaw gets a tad severe at points for my tastes (especially #10 green), but I like what Nicklaus attempted to do there.

[Rob Rigg]

More Whisper Rock press with the Accenture final pairing of Ogilvy and Casey.

Roger Maltbie teed up the WR ball for GeO who went along with it and dropped a couple WR bombs himself. Then Johnny Miller rolled his eyes and deadpanned some sort of "man, this club gets a ton of press comment."

For a club that likes to fly under the radar, they invariably get a mention at least once or twice during telecasts of PGA tournaments.

Kind of funny really.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

More Whisper Rock press with the Accenture final pairing of Ogilvy and Casey.

Roger Maltbie teed up the WR ball for GeO who went along with it and dropped a couple WR bombs himself. Then Johnny Miller rolled his eyes and deadpanned some sort of "man, this club gets a ton of press comment."

For a club that likes to fly under the radar, they invariably get a mention at least once or twice during telecasts of PGA tournaments.

Kind of funny really.

I've got the over/under on WR mentions at 6 during tomorrow's telecast.

[Rob Rigg]

I'm taking the over on that one - I bet you they hit six by the time they hit their first tee shot 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm taking the over on that one - I bet you they hit six by the time they hit their first tee shot 

Amen to that, I'd put it closer to 25 on the o/u....

[Sean Leary]

Say what you want but it seems exactly like my kind of place.

[Joel_Stewart]

It's a really great place and a great membership.  Gregg Tryus the developer played in the AT&T this year.  It wouldn't surprise me if he hired a bus to take the members down.   Its like a family.

[Mark Kinney]

As someone who has worked at The Rock for the last few years, I'll share some observations from the previous discussions...

First off, congratulations to both Geoff and Paul.  Best of luck, we'll all be/ are watching.  It's pretty cool that with 5 guys out of the 64 player field, we get two members in the final.


As for the courses....

Jim Thornton provided a good synopsis of each course.  BTW, funniest part of the story about Couples MG is that he and his partner (who is about an were in the THIRD flight.  
IMO the best thing about the two courses is how different they are.  The Lower was designed by Phil right after his experiences at Pinehurst in the 99 Open, hence the use of chipping/collection areas, etc.  The Upper was actually to easy for the members (and not just the tour guys) when it first opened and after several small tweaks is a daunting task.  

But not only are the courses different, so are the setups.  The Lower has very light rough, and with the green surrounds provides several options for players on each shot.  The Upper has significant rough, 2.5-3 inches that is very dense (and tough).  
Joel Stewart mentioned that for the average guy these courses are too difficult and I will tend to agree.  Not only is desert golf tough for those not used to it, but these courses are set up much more difficult that any others in the Valley (save maybe Desert Forest), and that is definitely a major factor.  BTW Joel, the top picture that you posted on the first page is NOT from WR (Mirabel maybe?).

It's really personal preference as to one's favorite, but generally the better players seem to prefer the Lower.  Members tend to take their guests on the Upper more often.  


As for the "rankings".  IMO, I don't believe that is the biggest concern to our owner and members.  If WR were to receive higher rankings, I'm sure that they would be very proud but they also know how political, subjective, etc. those can be.  I do agree with Matt Ward and others that both courses are rated well below where I believe they should be.  Having played almost every course on the AZ list, I would rank both in the top 3 or 4 in the state.

  
Well, its 85 and sunny (again...) and I gotta go to work...  Be back later to comment more.