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Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Confidential Guide for sale £220
« on: January 19, 2009, 01:10:05 PM »
www.oldgolfauctions.com have a 96 version for sale £200 plus commission I think graham charges 10%. I thought someone on this site might fancy a copy for that.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 03:29:49 PM »
My apologies for soliciting...

I have a copy up for grabs as well, if anyone is interested.
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 06:00:05 PM »
First edition of the pinacle of golf writing, with dust jacket £20.

If you don't already have

P. Dickinson. A Round of Golf Courses 1951 1st edition in DJ - contains architectural content

you will never get a better oportunity.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 08:00:49 PM »
This sort of thread is sooooo inappropriate....you are on here trying to make a profit from Tom Doak's work and he will get no compensation.  Tom is a valuable member of this forum...please give him the respect he has earned and deserves.

Sincerely,

Bart

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2009, 08:03:39 PM »
Bart,

Does it offend Bill Gates if I bought Microsoft Stock 10 years ago and now sell it for 10x what I payed for it?

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2009, 08:09:47 PM »
I couldn't resist Kalen...
What was your entry price - on Jan 19th, 1999 it closed at $39.06
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2009, 08:11:15 PM »
Dang Mike,

I wondered that too when I was writing it...OK 20 years ago then.   ;D
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 08:13:27 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2009, 08:15:21 PM »
Much better entry date... a close of $0.41.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2009, 08:16:58 PM »
Kalen:

No...but I suspect a publicly traded company and the work of an author are different...I am pretty sure Mr. Doak has himself said this sort of thing annoys him and if so, we owe it to him to take it elsewhere...after all this isn't amazon.com or ebay.com.

I've said my peace...feel free to disagree...but give it some consideration.

Bart
« Last Edit: January 21, 2009, 11:22:18 AM by Bart Bradley »

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2009, 08:18:27 PM »
Thanks Mike,

I picked the wrong friggen decade....although MS must have done some stock splits over the last 10 yrs, which would explain that flat stock price.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2009, 08:21:30 PM »
Wow...wrong again, only 2 splits in last 10 years, most in prior decade :

Payable Date Type of Split* Closing Price Before Closing Price After
September 18, 1987
 2 for 1
 $114.50 (Sep 18)
 $53.50 (Sept 21)
 
April 12, 1990
 2 for 1
 $120.75 (Apr 12)
 $60.75 (Apr 16)
 
June 26, 1991
 3 for 2
 $100.75 (Jun 26)
 $68.00 (Jun 27)
 
June 12, 1992
 3 for 2
 $112.50 (Jun 12)
 $75.75 (Jun 15)
 
May 20, 1994
 2 for 1
 $97.75 (May 20)
 $50.63 (May 23)
 
December 6, 1996
 2 for 1
 $152.875 (Dec 6)
 $81.75 (Dec 9)
 
February 20, 1998
 2 for 1
 $155.13 (Feb 20)
 $81.63 (Feb 23)
 
March 26, 1999
 2 for 1
 $178.13 (Mar 26)
 $92.38 (Mar 29)
 
February 14, 2003
 2 for 1
 $48.30 (Feb 14)
 $24.96 (Feb 18)
 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2009, 08:26:09 PM »
Kalen:

No...but I suspect a publically traded company and the work of an author are different...I am pretty sure Mr. Doak has himself said this sort of thing annoys him and if so, we owe it to him to take it elsewhere...after all this isn't amazon.com or ebay.com.

I've said my peace...feel free to disagree...but give it some consideration.

Bart

Bart,

Its all fine and good and I totally get your point.  IIRC he's sold a few to some people with the agreement that they wouldn't resell for profit and apparently has got burned by that as well, so I can understand the sensitivity there too.

But....when one sells a book to the public, it too belongs to the public domain.  In a way its a compliment as people value his opinions that much to make the books increase such a massive amount in value.

Kyle Harris

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2009, 09:08:18 PM »
Having finally read a portion of it, I don't see why it's worth so much. Especially when considering books like Thomas's Golf Architecture In America and the Tillinghast writings, which still have contribution value today.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2009, 09:17:32 PM »
Having finally read a portion of it, I don't see why it's worth so much. Especially when considering books like Thomas's Golf Architecture In America and the Tillinghast writings, which still have contribution value today.


Kyle, I thought the same thing. I guess we could compare it to the diamond trade....well,  maybe not.

People have odd ways of valuing things, that's about all there is to it. I would much rather have Anatomy than the CG, and I do. I'm content.  ;D

Bart if you don't think Tom Doak has benefited from this writing and its rarity and people overvaluing it (IMO) than you are sadly mistaken. People have done some pretty disrespectful things in the past with this book and on this website, but there is no reason to get worked up about this thread. People on this site want to own, or may wish to sell it. Where else would you want them to go?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2009, 09:41:11 PM »
Kyle,

As I mentioned the other day, I couldn't disagree more with your assessment, as well as Ryan's.

It is as much a seminal, groundbreaking work that led to many people's interest in golf course architecture over the past 30 years as the work(s) of Cornish and Whitten, where they basically tried to chronicle the design history of every golf course on the planet.   

They failed in their grand goal, they made mistakes, but ultimately they started many of us on an amazing search to uncover the past and dig up the true stories of the men (and sometimes women) responsible for the playing fields of the game.

In the case of Confidential Guide, please cite for me another time in the history of the game where a young student of the art searches the globe in pursuit of learning the best that the game has to offer.

His trips to lands and courses far and wide made what CB Macdonald, Dev Emmett, and Hugh Wilson did look like a high school field trip. 

You might disagree with some of his course assessments, and much like the C&W tome, nitpick some misses here and there, but I'm planning to go to Oregon later this year and I can tell you the first place I looked to see what might be of worth and/or historic value was the Confidential Guide.

I think you guys might be too young to appreciate a world where finding out anything and everything about a course was as simple as starting a post on GolfClubAtlas seeking insight, but the value of the book is clearly reflected in the price, and it's not just because Doak is some kind of Beyonce of Bunkers.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2009, 09:50:33 PM »
You mean Doak wears leotards and does that straight-legged squat thingy while singing "All the single golfers"?  To quote the bard Timberlake, "We're the dancers."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Kyle Harris

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2009, 10:00:07 PM »
Mike,

Please cite another time where we actually know that a young student of the game travelled the world to see the best the game had to offer. Don't you consider the Tillinghast tour to be something on this level? The problem with the Confidential Guide is it passes itself off as comprehensive (the very nature of the Doak Scale is based on comparing the golf course to others) but as you well know, completely misses some of the best in our area. Is it a reference? Sure is. But is it worth $500 because Doak decided to travel a lot? Hardly, especially considering the information therein is increasingly out of date.

I think a man of your taste and calibre would find C&W to be an equally valuable guide to seeking history in an area.

When a book suggests the tone that it is comprehensive to what needs to be seen in an area, and then completely misses a good 70% of that area... how is that worth any more than a simple golf guide?

Ryan Farrow

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2009, 10:31:56 PM »
Mike, I just lived out my assessment over the past 3-4 years. If I was handed or recommended the Confidential Guide or some other literature about "golf courses" INSTEAD OF  Anatomy / Spirit of St. Andrews / Golf Arch. in America etc... I don't think my interest would have been sparked the way it was.

If you think there is more value in someones opinion of golf courses over someone sharing their design philosophy.... then chalk one up for being young and ignorant. 

Kyle Harris

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2009, 10:47:06 PM »
Mike, I just lived out my assessment over the past 3-4 years. If I was handed or recommended the Confidential Guide or some other literature about "golf courses" INSTEAD OF  Anatomy / Spirit of St. Andrews / Golf Arch. in America etc... I don't think my interest would have been sparked the way it was.

If you think there is more value in someones opinion of golf courses over someone sharing their design philosophy.... then chalk one up for being young and ignorant. 

Come on Ryan, no need to be defensive.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2009, 10:54:29 PM »
Kyle,
It is worth whatever someone will pay. You value the book differently than some, but that doesn't mean Mike doesn't have a point. Doak forced the golf establishment to look at modern golf architecture through a different lens.

I don't think there is anyone here saying it's the end all book. The books Ryan notes are probably better for the serious student. But the GC changed things, or at least got the ball rolling in a different direction. It's a historical book for that reason alone and a collector may value the book higher than a student.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2009, 10:56:14 PM »
I had my first look at Doak's book just a month or so ago, thanks to an interlibrary loan. 

I was pleasantly surprised with the book. I didn't agree with Doak on his assessment of a number of courses and noticed it certainly wasn't comprehensive.  But I did really enjoy the 31 flavors section with recommendations of all types of golf courses and especially liked the Gazetteer section at the end.  Sections like hardest back to back holes are a lot of fun to read.

There's nothing wrong that I can see by posting availability of this book (or other rare ones concerning GCA) on the site. There is a lot of interest and I don't see why Doak would be offended by this.  It's not like we're trashing the 18th at High Pointe.   ;D  If he is being cheated out of revenue, he can always put out a new edition.

Ryan Farrow

Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2009, 11:30:22 PM »
Kyle,
I'm a defensive person, thats why I am a Steelers fan.

Don, well put. I'm sure mike was saying the same thing, you just said it better, and it took less time to read. Thanks

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2009, 01:04:21 AM »
Isn't the biggest reason for its elevated price the fact that there's a very limited supply?

Neil_Crafter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2009, 04:46:03 AM »
Ian
The yellow jacketed trade edition that was published by Sleeping Bear Press (and is the version available for GBP220) was certainly not published as a limited edition and I reckon there would have been quite a few thousand printed. Tom would of course know the numbers. My guess would be 5000 copies. So not particularly scarce numbers wise, just very few that people are not hanging on to. Tom's earlier red cover limited edition is much scarcer as only 1000 were printed.

I don't think Tom would be offended by people selling their copies of the trade edition - what I know has upset him is when some people have bought a limited edition from him in the past and then shortly after onsold it for a very tidy profit.

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Confidential Guide for sale £220
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2009, 05:19:21 AM »
12,000 sleeping bear editions printed...

This is the best website to see the history of the book:

http://valuablebook.wordpress.com/2008/03/02/the-confidential-guide-to-golf-by-tom-doak/


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