[David Stamm]

I've recently become more interested Park, Jr. and learning more about him. In doing so, a question has formed. Considering the fact that the man was not only a great designer of courses, but of golf clubs with patents on several important designs for their time, as well as being the first professional to pen a book (the very first of it's kind), and oh yes, he also managed to win the Open twice, has there been a figure with such an all encompassing impact on the game? I thought Tom Morris, but to my knowledge, he never wrote a book. Vardon? I don't seem to remember reading that he was ever a club designer, and had a very small course portfolio to his name. Perhaps Braid? Taylor? Were they ever considered club makers? I suppose that in modern times, one could point to Palmer, Nicklaus and Player, but how much of a  "clubmaker" were they? Have I missed anyone? Can a case be made that Willie Park, Jr. was the greatest overall contributor to the game amongst architects?

[Phil_the_Author]

David,

You ask an interesting question, "Can a case be made that Willie Park, Jr. was the greatest overall contributor to the game amongst architects?"

Certainly a case can be made, but depending upon the individual accomplishments within the overall list, either a good or very weak one is what will be produced.

For example, his accomplishments as a player in comparison to Tilly is night and day, yet it would also be safe to say that Tilly's accomplishments as an architect is even more so. There will be 15 USGA and PGA Championships contested on Tilly courses in this decade alone... how many will be on Willie Park courses?

Tilly wrote two books and his other writings and being the Editor for several journals and newspapers at various times make it almost no comparison to Willie in that one. Tilly also may have been ultimately responsible for keeping the PGA of America from going bankrupt during the Great depression as his Course Consultation Tour caused many pros & their clubs to send in back and current dues without which they wouldn't have survuved. And that doesn't even address the overall impact that the tour had on literally hundreds of courses across America.

Did Willie sketch holes and green sites, etc? Tilly carried a pad and drawing implements wherever he went and spent many hours doing so.

Tilly also taught a number of players. In fact his two most notable "students were were Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan. That ain't a bad resume' for any teaching pro.

As far as I know, Willie never took a single photograph, yet Tilly's work was used by many golf writers of his day. In fact, one newspaper article mentioned that Tilly was responsible for many photographs of golf courses, players and tournaments that otherwise wouldn't have been recorded for posterity.

Although he never made a single golf club, he did save the original "Jigger" that Stewart cast. It came out of the mold with a slight imperfection and Stewart decided to throw it away. Tilly convinced him to give him the head and had it shafted and used it for many years. In fact, I believe that it is with his set of clubs that one of his granddaughters still has.

So, how can one compare? In Willie's day he had less opportunities to affect the game on every level that Tilly did, while today's architects, in many ways, have fewer ones as well.

For example, can you picture Tom Doak attending tournament after tournament lugging around camera equipment to take photographs for himself of the course and players? Even if he so dersired, unless he was a recognized member of a media outlet he would never be granted credentials to do so. So there is one area where a comparison would be unfair to Tom and other architects of today.

Now I bring all this up not because i think Tilly had the greatest impact, but rather to make the point that clearly defined parameters need to be established before any fair comparisons can be made for architects from so many different eras.

For his time and opportunities I think it is safe to say that Willie made an impact on the game that is still felt today... and that alone is an amazing accomplishment! 

[Sean_A]

David

Park Jr's work has grown on me over the past several years and I have a lot of time for him.  I do think a sound case could be made for him, but I still think OTM is a tough act to beat.

Ciao 

 

[BCrosby]

Taylor might give Park a run for the money.

His playing career goes without saying. JHT wrote several books and many articles on playing and on golf course design. He designed a number of courses, including Mid-Surrey, which are well regarded.

I think he also designed and promoted a line of golf clubs. He was frequently featured in advertisements for his clubs in golf magazines pre-WWI.

JHT also founded and ran the European PGA for a number of years.

A very impressive record of accomplishment and a towering figure of the time.

Bob

[Kyle Harris]

Phil Young,

How many Park courses were modified by Tillinghast during his PGA Service tour?

[BCrosby]

David - Interestingly, all of Palmer, Player and Nicklaus had club lines. They all claimed to be involved with club design, Palmer especially so.

I read an article a couple of years ago about Nicklaus and MacGregor. He was apparently quite the tyrant about the clubs they provided him for  tournament play. He also insisted on various design changes to their "Tourney" line.

Whether or not any of that counts as being a "clubmaker" I don't know.

Bob

[David_Tepper]

David S. -

Have you read "Willie Park, Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf To The World," by Stephen Walter?

I learned a lot about Park reading the book, but my sense was Park's career, while by no means a failure, was not a success in the conventional sense.

DT

[JNagle]

David -

I am in the process of reading 'Willie Park Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf to the World' by Walter Stephen.  This book makes a case for Willie as the true disciple of golf.  I am in the early stages of the book so there are still more questions than answers.  He is certainly an overlooked architect and ism without question, worthy of further study.  We are constantly suprised with his work when we come across courses we are not familiar with.  He had a lot to say, before the ODG's, regarding greens design, bunker placement and construction and the game.  I truly believe he is more deserving of more recognition than he is given.

[David Stamm]

David S. -

Have you read "Willie Park, Jr. - The Man Who Took Golf To The World," by Stephen Walter?

I learned a lot about Park reading the book, but my sense was Park's career, while by no means a failure, was not a success in the conventional sense.

DT

I haven't. Since I'm trying to learn more about him, it sounds like an edition worth adding to the library. I'm ashamed to say that I haven't gotten his own book, The Game of Golf, yet.

[TEPaul]

About Park Jr. I would just say that for a number of reasons he seems to have been one of the most important "links" or "transition men" in golf architecture's fascinating history and evolution; perhaps even the most important.

But like most of those important early guys I think what is most important to know is how and how much his own architecture and architectural ideas changed over the course of his career in architecture. And of course why!

[Phil_the_Author]

Kyle,

You asked, "Phil Young, How many Park courses were modified by Tillinghast during his PGA Service tour?"

Off hand, I don't know. With the many hundreds of courses that he visited it would take a bit of work to figure out which ones were Park's courses. You are welcome to that challenge!  

That Tilly did make changes at some of his can be misleading, just as when some of today's architects make changes to Tilly courses. They were and are done to "modernize" a course to meet the game of the time. Whether that is a good thing or not is another matter, but in either case it is no reflection on the quality of the design when looked at in the timeframe of when it opened for play. A 5,600 yard course may have been fantastic in 1890; today it barely qualifies as an "executive" course no less one of the great ones in the land...

I don't think David is asking who is the greatest architect and what were his great works, but rather whether one can recognize one architect above all as having had the greatest overall impact upon the game for his time and down to this day.

I don't think there is any quantifiable way to make that determination.

[TEPaul]

David Stamm:

If you're really talking about an overall impact on the GAME I think something like administration (Rules, national golf associations etc) should probably be included and if it was a guy like C.B. Macdonald would certainly rise in consideration. And don't forget, in golf architecture, Macdonald probably did the most with the idea of copying holes or architectural principles of holes, certainly a most important idea at least.

[David Stamm]

David Stamm:

If you're really talking about an overall impact on the GAME I think something like administration (Rules, national golf associations etc) should probably be included and if it was a guy like C.B. Macdonald would certainly rise in consideration. And don't forget, in golf architecture, Macdonald probably did the most with the idea of copying holes or architectural principles of holes, certainly a most important idea at least.

An excellent point, Tom. And this was the dialogue I was hoping this would generate. Certainly a strong case can be made for CBM and his overall impact on the game. My hope is to compare and contrast the architects who have had the biggest overall impact on the game that includes areas outside the scope of course design as well as being a major contributor inside the scope of design.

[David Stamm]

There will be 15 USGA and PGA Championships contested on Tilly courses in this decade alone... how many will be on Willie Park courses?

Philip, come on, just because there will be (and have been) so many USGA events on AWT's courses doesn't mean that diminishes Park's contributions. As you said yourself, AWT has had his fair share of courses altered in preparation for said event. As you know, Torrey Pines is a Bell, Jr. design. Does that mean he's has something over other architects because of that? I know there is a difference between one course, like Bell Jr.,  and many like AWT's impressive list, and there is something to be said for that.
 
Tilly wrote two books and his other writings and being the Editor for several journals and newspapers at various times make it almost no comparison to Willie in that one. Tilly also may have been ultimately responsible for keeping the PGA of America from going bankrupt during the Great depression as his Course Consultation Tour caused many pros & their clubs to send in back and current dues without which they wouldn't have survuved. And that doesn't even address the overall impact that the tour had on literally hundreds of courses across America.

Just being devil's advocate here. Park was the first, and it's impossible to know if he had not wrote that book if the ones that followed would've been written or not. Probably, but it is something to consider. Also, Park died in 1925, before the depression, and only 9 years after the PGA of America was formed.

Did Willie sketch holes and green sites, etc? Tilly carried a pad and drawing implements wherever he went and spent many hours doing so.

Not sure if Park did or not. Did OTM? Not sure how big of factor this is.

Tilly also taught a number of players. In fact his two most notable "students were were Bobby Jones and Ben Hogan. That ain't a bad resume' for any teaching pro.

True, but I think Stewart Maiden is the one we can point to as the actual teacher of RTJ. As for Hogan, how much of Hogan's game can be attributed to AWT? I'm not by any means minimizing his efforts, just asking a question. FWIW, Park's daughter made into the semifinals of the '37 British Ladies Amatuer Championship.


 
So, how can one compare? In Willie's day he had less opportunities to affect the game on every level that Tilly did, while today's architects, in many ways, have fewer ones as well.

 
For his time and opportunities I think it is safe to say that Willie made an impact on the game that is still felt today... and that alone is an amazing accomplishment! 

Agreed. A case can be made for both.

[Bill_McBride]

This kind of argument -- who was the most influential or most important? -- is about as fruitless as trying to pick the very best golf course or to rank the best #1 - #100.

Better in my mind to establish who would be in the pantheon of the most important influences on the game of golf as it has survived over the 150 years or so it emerged as a major sport.

In that case Willie Park and AWT would both be members of the pantheon as well as a dozen others.  It's really difficult to argue that either of those guys was more important in an overall sense than Old Tom or Mackenzie.

I guess this is a Huckaby-ish position - can't we all just get along? 

[David Stamm]

This kind of argument -- who was the most influential or most important? -- is about as fruitless as trying to pick the very best golf course or to rank the best #1 - #100.

Better in my mind to establish who would be in the pantheon of the most impoortant influences on the game of golf as it has survived over the 150 years or so it emerged as a major sport.

In that case Willie Park and AWT would both be members of the pantheon as well as a dozen others.  It's really difficult to argue that either of those guys was more important in an overall since than Old Tom or Mackenzie.

I guess this is a Huckaby-ish position - can't we all just get along? 

Sorry, Bill. I wasn't trying to argue w/ Philip or against AWT, just debating.  As I said to TEP, I had hoped that this thread would cause discussions of worthy contenders. AWT is certainly one, as is Old Tom. And you know how I feel about MacK.

[Kyle Harris]

Park definitely sketched holes. Sketches in the light of Donald Ross or William Flynn and in fact, I have a copy of the form he used.

He could also sketch extensive routing plans, one of which sits on display in the Penn State University Golf Courses Clubhouse.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Old Tom, just for the record did produce sketch plans for his courses.

There are courses that he designed that did not materialise for a few year i.e. St Michael at Leuchars and also courses that land deals never went through but he still designed the courses e.g. Scotscraig.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Well, I stand corrected concerning Park Jr's golf club design contributions.


"Willie Park Jr. was the Open (British) champion in 1887 at Prestwick and again in 1889 at Musselburgh. He was the first person to pursue golf course architecture as a profession. He designed 160 courses in total including the Old course at Sunningdale, Portstewart, Olympia Fields #4, Huntercombe and The Maidstone Links on Long Island. He has a reputation as one of the best putters of all time. He was also an early designer of golf clubs and designed one of the first blade putters, the first driver with a convex face and he is also credited as the first designer to put grooves in irons. Park can best be described as an iconoclast. He was a heavy better and would allegedly take on all comers in match play. Many period photos of Park show him wearing suits that were all white and wearing a white hat."


Ciao

[Mike_Cirba]

As much as anyone, I think Willie Park Jr. was the Father of the School of Naturalism in design.   I see him as a predecessor and direct ancestor to guys like Colt, Tillinghast, Crump, Wilson, and Fowler.

[Sean_A]

As much as anyone, I think Willie Park Jr. was the Father of the School of Naturalism in design.   I see him as a predecessor and direct ancestor to guys like Colt, Tillinghast, Crump, Wilson, and Fowler.

Mike

Park Jr was certainly stumbling around with something new in design.  Though to be honest, I think Colt brought it all about by going to the next level of being willing to shift the land to suit his purposes yet still make it look natural.  I am not sure anybody pulled this off before Colt.  When you look at pre and post Park Jr courses the influence of Colt is glaring.  Fowler and Park Jr must have been blown away when they saw Swinley.  Who knows, perhaps even Colt was blown away by Swinley.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Willie Park Jr. was a product of his father and came under the influence of Old Tom. In fact Old Tom recommended Willie for a few projects, one being Burntisland Golf Club.

I would not credit him with being the father of anything apart from moving the design process forward into the 20th Century. Please remember that by his time the game was well established and the English clubs started to pour a considerable amount of money into their courses. This is also reflected in the Fees charged by Parks Jr and those that followed not to mention allowing more time as well as money to undertake the construction of these non links courses.

Not only was design evolving but so was the structure of the clubs. Men with money wanted to get involved and this allowed the later designers to fully concentrate on design without to much distraction in looking for other sources of income. This in itself opened the way to what has been termed the Golden Age. Up to the turn end of the 1890’s all the designers needed other ways to earn a living to enable them to practice, expand and enjoy the game they loved. Hence many fell back upon the Club & ball making business. The classic example is Old Tom’s fee of just £1 per day which he maintained for some 50 years. To compare take Brora redesign by Braid done in half a day for the sum of £27 albeit in 1923.

I feel we need to look at the full spectrum prior trying to put these guys in their pigeon boxes, there is just so much more to understand.

As for Willie   “Park can best be described as an iconoclast”  Ummm…

Money was the key factor in allowing the design process to move forward allowing Colt and Co. to implement the ideas learnt from their predecessors (who in their time lacked that major capitol investment). IMHO money was the key for the (second) Golden Age, it as always opened the doors.

Melvyn

[Sean_A]

Willie Park Jr. was a product of his father and came under the influence of Old Tom. In fact Old Tom recommended Willie for a few projects, one being Burntisland Golf Club.

I would not credit him with being the father of anything apart from moving the design process forward into the 20th Century. Please remember that by his time the game was well established and the English clubs started to pour a considerable amount of money into their courses. This is also reflected in the Fees charged by Parks Jr and those that followed not to mention allowing more time as well as money to undertake the construction these non links course.

Not only was design evolving but so was the structure of the clubs. Men with money wanted to get involved and this allowed the later designers to fully concentrate on design without to much distraction in looking for other sources of income. This in itself opened the way to what has been termed the Golden Age. Up to the turn end of the 1890’s all the designers needed other ways to earn a living to enable them to practice, expand and enjoy the game they loved. Hence many fell back upon the Club & ball making business. The classic example is Old Tom’s fee of just £1 per day which he maintained for some 50 years. To compare take Brora redesign by Braid done in half a day for the sum of £27 albeit in 1923.

I feel we need to look at the full spectrum prior trying to put these guys in their pigeon boxes, there is just so much more to understand.

As for Willie   “Park can best be described as an iconoclast”  Ummm…

Money was the key factor in allowing the design process to move forward allowing Colt and Co. to implement the ideas learnt from their predecessors (who in their time lacked that major capitol investment). IMHO money was the key for the (second) Golden Age, it as always opened the doors.

Melvyn

Melvyn

Of course money opens doors and there is no bigger fan of Braid's architecture out there than myself, but Braid's best work was done on linksland - a major advantage in creating quality holes for relatively little money.  That said, money is not the only reason that guys like Park Jr, Fowler and especially Colt excelled in the design business.  These guys were good and able to envision what could be created while retaining a natural appeal - none moreso than Colt.  Sure, these guys stood on the shoulders of OTM, but  due to talent, hard work and creative vision, these guys stood even taller on those shoulders.

Ciao

[Melvyn Morrow]

Sean

I certainly do not dispute the flair and talent the later designers had and brought to the game. Nor am I say that the earlier guy were better. The point is that money gave the freedom to earn a real living by designing courses, thus allowing the later guys more time and opportunity to develop their designs. Add to this process the advance in earth moving equipment linked again to money and they had a clear advantage. Progress is the name of the game, powered by money, which alas was lacking the century before.

No, certainly had no intentions of diminishing the later guys but they may have taller shoulders because of the finance available. Proof is in the Great Depression and what was actually achieved during that period.

Melvyn

[TEPaul]

"Old Tom, just for the record did produce sketch plans for his courses.

There are courses that he designed that did not materialise for a few year i.e. St Michael at Leuchars and also courses that land deals never went through but he still designed the courses e.g. Scotscraig."


Melvyn:

I'm very interested in that and I think I can say with some assurance that the USGA is too. An effort has been made or will be made to attempt to track the history and evolution of architectural plans and drawings, when they first began, how they evolved etc, as much as actual on-the-ground architecture itself.

To do that obviously they will be looking to find (become aware of) the earliest architectural drawings ever done even if in the form of those old so-called "stick routing" drawings (basically lines depicting the length and direction of holes). If you really are aware of even some of those by OTM we would like to get a look at them somehow, as well as their dates. And, of course, if he ever did any of the more sophisticated hole drawings done on grid-paper that would be really interesting and frankly pretty amazing and unexpected.

I have seen a stick-routing drawing of RCD and some think it may've been done by OTM but there isn't any evidence of that on the drawing and I can't now remember if it even had a date or can be accurately dated somehow (which is probably possible given other material documentation from the history of that course).

On the other hand, it would be extraordinary if some entity like the St Andrew's Links Trust have anything on paper from Alan Robertson, the man some think may've been the very first actual architect of comprehensive man-made architectural features such as the 17th green and Road Hole bunker.

At this time most of us have assumed the first comprehensive and fairly sophisticated architectural drawer may've been Harry Colt but I'm not sure what the dates are of his earliest hole drawings, for instance. And we are aware of some pretty cool free-hand hole drawings of architects such as Alison that are both interesting architecturally and very artistic; but generally they are later, such as after the first decade of the 20th century.

Again, if you're aware of something on paper from OTM we sure would like to analyze it and definitely the dates.

And the same certainly goes for Willie Park Jr!

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