Can American caddying be rejuvenated?

[John Burzynski]

I feel that American caddying will not be rejuvenated, except in a few special cases at very exclusive / high end or very old-line traditional courses, generally in 3 or 4 or 5 major metropolitan areas (certain Chicago, New york, etc. courses).

I am not sure that there are enough people anymore willing to consistently pay an equivalent or almost identical price for a caddy as compared to the same cost for a round of golf, at least not in most small to midsized cities, at least not enough to have a consistently needed stable of caddies.   

I think that the cost of a round of golf, and the cost of a caddy, have both become a luxury to have both at the same time.  You might get away with a $50 or $75 a week green fee (which is a minimum at a course that actually offers a caddy), but not an additional $30 or $50 cost for a caddy on a weekly basis.    Of course, there are exceptions, but for 95% of golfers, this just won't float anymore.

I have no dispute with caddy programs, Evan Scholarships, etc.  They are all valuable in their own right, although I can tell you from personal experience with my kids that the Evans Scholarship is a long shot / low percentage, due to the number of applicants vs. #  of scholarships, and due to all of the other requirements like income, grades, etc.  I wouldn't solely caddy in hope of a 'guarantee' of an Evans Scholarship,  it is a nice 'perk' (albeit a really nice perk) if you get it, but you can't count on it.

Not tough to earn more working at a grocery store, clothing store or other retail establishment around here for a summer vs. an actual caddying take during a summer.  Minimally 30 hours a week (most work 40 if they can) x $8 an hour is $210 a week, x 15 summer weeks is $3150, all of which will be tax free after you get your refund.    Usually guaranteed hours if you are a hard worker, plus no days without work due to rain, no loops, etc. 

I wonder how many loops actually are run during the week anymore at most courses?

[PCCraig]

Going back to the first question, I think a big reason for a caddy program to work at a club is if its member know and appreciate what a good caddy actually is. I have looped for some men who thought they knew...but really had no idea what a caddy should be doing at any given moment. At other clubs a member will recognize and pay for good caddies.

I'm not sure this has been said yet about the WGA, but they do more than attract the caddies to the clubs, they TRAIN them to be worth a members time.

[Bill Shamleffer]

Tom,

What was your question again?

Should it be? If so how?

I'm thinking particularly through structures like some of the caddy programs attached to regional golf associations like Chicago's massive Evans Caddy Scholarship program, Mass's Ouimet and Philadelphia's (GAP) J. Wood Platt?

These regions have done a good job this way for years; should other regions who haven't taken part get involved? If so, how should it be encouraged? Who are the best entities to help encourage it? Should this type of effort be aided somehow by local, state and even the Federal governement in some way?

Could that help encourage somehow far more clubs to do things like at least price their carts at or higher than caddy fees? I doubt anyone or anything could force clubs to do that but what could be done to encourage them to do that?

Some may not like the whole concept of "social engineering" from a government perspective but it's pretty hard to deny that the natural social engineering of caddying throughout golf's history has been a pretty amazing and impressive process of essentially "learning life at a young age."

I realize that impressive world of young caddying way back then did not compete against the cart as it may now but that might not be a good reason to watch it die out to any degree.

I just ran across a guy who is really gungho about this even though he says the effort has been sort of frustrating.

Let's hear your ideas and opinions!

Oh yeah.  Can American caddying be rejuvenated?


I. ESSENTIAL ELEMENTS
   A. Committed membership
   B. Quality caddie master

First beyond all of the detours this discussion has taken two things are ESSENTIAL:  A committed membership and a quality caddie master.  Without these two items any caddie program will flounder.  However, with these two items a caddie program can flourish.  The size may vary depending upon the needs of the club and the availability of a local pool of caddies, but a committed membership can create or reinvigorate a thriving caddie program.


II. CADDYING should be one of many alternatives.
   A. Some people love golf
   B. Some people are up to the hard work and hustle required to succeed.

Of course caddying is not for every kid.  Some kids will have their time devoted to other activities and some kids will not have the desire to put in that much effort for the going pay scale.

On the other hand kids can be found who will love spending time on a golf course and earning money.  Some of these kids will even come from financially well off families.

We all know this.  We have all seen many people get hooked on golf and even finding some golf related employment just to be around the game, even though other endeavors may pay slightly (or significantly) better.  Also, we all know that some one willing to work hard and hustle hard can come from all backgrounds.  I knew sons of members at the club I caddied at who were lazy and spoiled; but I knew of more sons of members who were also willing to work hard and were expected to earn some of their own spending money, and some of these kids caddied at other clubs (and subsequently their dads were the best to caddie for and the best tippers having heard what their own sons encountered).


III. FOCUS ON GETTING KIDS STARTED AT AGE 12-13

Very few memberships will want to support a thriving caddie program where it will cost over $50 per round to have caddie on a weekly basis.

A 12 or 13 year old has few other opportunites to earn money and will work for $35 for fours hours work (even though this included waiting 1 to 2 hours for the loop).  A quality caddie master and a committed membership can develope these kids from bag toters in to caddies within 2 years.  By the time the kids reach 16 enough will continue to caddie for a $80 double, and for the extra benefits (free golf on Monday, being on the golf course, spending time with enjoyable people, and for a few a shot at a scholarship).


IV. GOVERNMENT
   A. No government assistance
   B. Limited government involvement - Keep caddies as independent contractors
      1. The economics of caddying do not otherwise work
      2. Almost no history of exploitation of caddies as independent contractors

Finally, the only thing government should do is allow this programs to flourish.  No financial or other government support is required.  The kids can not caddie in the dark so their time caddying during the school year will be limited to weekends and possibly a quick nine after school in September and May.

BUT government must allow these jobs to remain classified as "independent contractors".  Why should government allow this classification to continue?  The economics only work for the majority of caddie programs with the caddies as independent contractors.  The benefits to the community for having a thriving caddie program are quite clear (see my initial post in this discussion).  And in conclusion, there is a very clear and extensive record going back for decades of caddies not being exploited due to this classification.  Rather the majority of kids who have caddied have benefited from this experience.


V. CADDYING is not for every kid; but should be one of the alternatives

I understand that for some kids other activities and jobs will be more beneficial to them than will caddying.  But for those kids who do not have these advantage available to them, what is the better alternative: working at a fast food restaurant or caddying (will that fast food restaurant say "you do not need to work school nights, or you do not need to come in when it interferes with another school activity"); working at the mall or caddying; sitting around the house playing Wii all weekend or caddying.

Of course caddying is not for every kid, of course some kids in some caddie yards will encounter the wrong crowd; but none of this eliminates the possibility of a quality caddie program as being one the alternatives kids and parents should have available to them.

[Jeff Goldman]

Dave,

Enzo the Baker started as a caddy, and one night snuck into the kitchen at the club and started making petit fours, and the rest was history.   

Jeff

[archie_struthers]

   

Help!  Calling Tom Doak or Mike Cirba....I can't elucidate it for whatever reason.

TEP asked If "American caddying can be rejuvenuted " and it can.  But first we need a history lesson, and to understand what it brought.  Over the last two decades golf , and it's culture has changed dramatically.  The PGA Tour , and one Mr Tiger Woods , who I greatly admire, changed it almost as significantly  as the great Arnold Palmer did.

Arnold was a workingman playing an elitiist game, he had game and tons, tons  of heart...which Americans loved , he grew the game  exponentially. as Americans reaped the riches of the post war era. Despite Arnold's bringing the game to the masses , their existed a reverence for tradition , and history .  The game was still bigger than the business.

 I'm going to indict the PGA TOUR  for trying to squeeze every last shekel out of the game.  Witness  also the  USGA, which became a money printing machine.  Imagine that Merion isn't big enough to host the  US OPEN , and the lenghts (literally and figuratively the club has gone to be re-considered) . Gimme a break.....

With  Tiger as it's poster child and an army of machine like ball stikers , the TOUR became golf , it was Madison Avenue all the way. To that end, does anyone out their see how the local PGA chapters and the respect golf pro's get has been diminished.  

 When I worked at Woodcrest head pro Tim DeBaufre was a hero to me, as was  teaching pro Vince Sullivan. Same thing with Tommy Elder (caddy master at Pine Valley)  but I digress

It's all about the money...sad but true... when I hear all you guys who love golf enough to post on a web site abut architecture adding up the costs, it drives the point home quite clearly.  We'll always have the elite clubs as a last bastion of looping, what we need is some grass roots participation....there . I've said it again.....

My buddies are rich , middle class and poor....we all play golf for the camaraderie and the action , probably in that order.

No one in our group would begrudge a kid  making five bucks a head to run around the course with us, finding balls and giving whatever help they can on the course....no one I know likes losing their high priced pellets, or a match because of same .  I'm thinking that the kids could make anywhere from $35 to $100 bucks a day , depending on their motivation  (two loops)and skill . Multiply this by the three or four days a week they could find work  at our club and you have $150 to $300 a week CASH for someone making nothing .... now we're talking....how many of your twelve to fifteen year olds make any money , much less $300 a week iin the summer and some extra on weekends duing the shoulder seasons...how many of you guys had paper routes,  they don't exist any more to the best of my knowledge... Now the guy who delivers my paper bills me online and  only sees me at Christmas ...times change ....but there is hope for caddying

If only the golf pro , a real golf pro , would be once again the "man " at the club there would be more hope for caddying....I'm thinking this economic tsunami we are going to go thru will change golf again....hopefully less corporate and more personal  ...in fact , if my movie makes or I find a rich sponsor ,  or maybe one of you guys will  hit it rich and not care about blowing some of the loot.....we'll have caddies...and some of them will grow to be  characters ...and the place will be about golf...and fabulous!

"I had a Dream"

,

[Bill Shamleffer]

Finally, I'd love to know how much some of the guys who tout "contacts made through caddying" are padding that benefit, or whether it's real.  Honestly, I caddied for some real fat cat employers over the years, but it never dawned on me to hit them up for a job.  Maybe that's because I just didn't feel it was appropriate or maybe it's because as it turned out, I didn't need much help in that regard, but how often do people really do that?  And does it work?  Let's hear it guys:  in a tough job market for college kids, should they be sending resumes to their former loops asking them to open a few doors for them?  I'm sure folks would be happy to help...and if such things do happen regularly, that's a real benefit worth touting.  I happen to think it doesn't happen as often as folks say it does (except, of course, at the Evans Scholar level), but I'm willing to be proven wrong...

Dave,

I too made the point that caddying helped get my work career started.  Of course I did not call a member and say "What time should I start at your bank on Monday" (and I know this is not what you were thinking).  So let me explain how I used caddying to get a job.

First, I caddied all through college.  Although I never had a summer internship, even if a kid did get a summer internship, they could still caddie on weekends.  Some members were very happy to hear how this long-time caddie was doing in college and what his career aspirations were.  I did not spend four hours asking for career tips.  But even just one of the walks down one fairway talking about what I wanted to do after college resulted in some occasional helpful feedback.

Second, once I had my degree I sent a letter to any member involved in my field of interest.  This letter never asked for a job.  I asked if that member had a little bit of time to meet with me and to offer any advice in how I could get into that field.  I also stated that I would call that member to see if it was possible to meet and when it would be most convenient to that person.  Of course I also enclosed a copy of my resume.  A few members were of no assistance.  Quite a few talked to me about what I wanted to do and offered some bit of advice.  Then a good number arranged an interview for me with someone at their place of employment.  Some interviews were with HR, but others were with some high placed people.

After sending maybe 100 of these letters, and after over a dozen interviews, I got my first job.  That was with an insurance company in St. Louis.  More than a decade later I am still in the insurance industry and doing well.

I was not the exception.  I know other guys I caddied with who got jobs through other members.  Some also in insurance, others in sales, some with law firms, etc.  Not every kid who caddies can plan on a job through the membership.  But every kid who sticks with caddying, who knows how to present himself well, and knows who to make his aspirations known without being burdensome, can definitely create some helpful contacts.  Think about it, if you have seen a caddie develop from 7th grade to college graduate and have had a handful of conversations with that kid, you will probably have enough of a gut feeling for that kid to know if you are comfortable in saying to someone, “he/she is a good worker, diligent, can carry on an intelligent conversation, and is worth spending time to see if he/she can be a beneficial hire”.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Regarding the history of caddying, has anyone thought to consider why golfers started using them in the first place?

I can't be sure, but my assumption is that it was simply because they were too lazy to carry their own bags. It had nothing to do with mentoring or any other charitable or altruistic endeavor.

Well...carts serve that purpose now (where they are available). The simple truth is that most golfers don't want to walk, and they certainly don't want to pay more to walk than ride (even if someone is carrying their bag).

I know I’m not splitting atoms here, but the golf cart has ruined the caddie. It has given the American golfer a lazier and cheaper alternative.

Caddies may have their place in some regions, and at the most elite of private clubs and resorts, but the average golfer does not want or need their service. What else really matters?

[Dan Herrmann]

Cabell - what killed the caddy?  The answer is in Caddyshack.  Yep - that movie.

In it, the Brian Doyle Murray character warns the caddies that there's been too much fighting, too much bad caddying, too much mischief, etc - and that they'd be replaced by caddies.

Nothing quite like meeting your caddy only to smell last night's booze on his breath.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?



It is caddy vs. the cart.

What ever mgmt can do to encourage the caddy is all that will work.
A caddy will speed up play and generate more revenue.

[JMEvensky]

Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?



It is caddy vs. the cart.

What ever mgmt can do to encourage the caddy is all that will work.
A caddy will speed up play and generate more revenue.

How will a caddie increase revenue?Sped up play = more green fees?

The "average" golfer thinks a caddie is what you drive to the golf course.Getting them to pay money for the "privilege" of physical exertion is a stretch.

As someone who has looked at starting a caddie program from a lot of angles,I just don't think it's possible.Those golfers for whom a caddie is an added value are a dying breed.

I truly envy the people in Chicago and what the WGA/Evans provides.I just don't think it can ever be re-created.

[Cabell Ackerly]

Is the average players perception of the caddy the same role as on the tour?

That is a big part of the problem. Most people who use a caddy inexplicably forget how to gauge distance and read greens. This leads to nothing but slower play.

It also creates a level of expectation that forces the cost of the service up. These days many people expect their caddy to not only carry their bag, replace, divots and rake sand traps, but to be experts at reading greens and gauging distance and wind conditions. They also expect him/or her to have the personality of Robin Williams with the psychological prowess of Bob Rotella. Anything short of that is basically a bad caddy.

[Dan Herrmann]

Cabell,
I just want a nice person with whom I can share a laugh.  I sure don't mind raking my own bunkers if it helps the caddy out - epecially if he's carrying 2 bags.

[Chris Cupit]

A lot of comment on here about 12-15 year old kids being a good target for being caddies.  I think the Fair Labor Standards Act is going to come into play in a caddie situation and not even allow caddies that young to work.

ALso, as a practical matter a caddie may need to be able to operate a golf car from time to time as part of the job and kids 15 and under are not licensed drivers in most states.

I am not a lawyer and would love for someone who knows to comment on FLSA restrictions on kids 15 and under working at all.

[Tom_Doak]

Archie:

I hear what you are saying.  This discussion doesn't have to be about the "economics" of caddying, it should also be about golf and the future of golf, and how getting young kids involved at a forecaddying level would not be taking money away from any part of the operation, but would get them outdoors and offline and around golf and golfers.

The amazing thing to me is that ten years ago nobody begrudged the idea of tipping a kid $5 to take their bag FROM THE BAG RACK TO THE TRUNK OF THEIR CAR, but can't figure out how to justify paying him $10-15 to do that AND TO FORECADDIE FOR 18 HOLES!

P.S.  It isn't just the Tour and the USGA that deserve the blame for golf becoming about money ... have you ever gone to the PGA Show or the GCSAA show?  Darn near everybody there is chasing money around, and they have been for the last 20-25 years.

[Tom_Doak]

Chris:

You may be right on your last post, and if so, it just goes to show how messed up this country is.  Organized labor does not need to be protecting the golf cart manufacturers!

[Chris Cupit]

Agreed that if I was even close to correct on my last post it's a sad thing for our country.  I will say though that years of watching even licensed teenagers drive (cars and golf carts) leads me to believe that under 15 is way too immature to drive as part of a job descritpion.  I am still amazed at the number of wrecks resulting from parents who let their kids "drive" golf carts

My dad and his family learned the game as caddies, I was fortunate and grew up playing junior golf and was exposed to the game that way.  I have caddied in USGA championships and on the PGA tour a couple of times but only for "fun" and I appreciate that the player-caddie relationship is  worth preserving when and wherever possible.

I also agree that focusing on the economics alone would not leave much hope for a rejuvination of caddie programs and obviously I choose to "donate" some of my money because I would like to keep a unique and special part of the game alive at my club.  I totally understand though that most people can not justify this extra cost.

[JMEvensky]

A lot of comment on here about 12-15 year old kids being a good target for being caddies.  I think the Fair Labor Standards Act is going to come into play in a caddie situation and not even allow caddies that young to work.

ALso, as a practical matter a caddie may need to be able to operate a golf car from time to time as part of the job and kids 15 and under are not licensed drivers in most states.

I am not a lawyer and would love for someone who knows to comment on FLSA restrictions on kids 15 and under working at all.

Even if allowable,do you really want the liability?How can a club really expect a 15 year old to comply with independent contractor status rules?

The world has changed.Sending a 15 year old(or younger) out is an accident waiting to happen.I wish we could allow every kid in town the opportunity to caddie and earn a few shekels.The reality is that a club will get sued by someone for something.No sane club would fade that come bet.Nobody is that civic minded.

[Bill Shamleffer]

RE: Caddying at age 12.

This is current status quo.  Many caddie programs allow kids to begin caddying at age 12, and  this employment is in compliance with most child labor laws.  The liability is minimal.  Most golf course injuries (other than the maintance crew) involve golf carts.  In 15 years of caddying, I remember nothing more than a few kids overcome by the heat.  And these situations required nothing more than the caddie needing to come in and get water and rest and come back the next day.

The only trip to the hospital for a non-maintenence crew employee I recall was the kid picking up golf balls on the driving range.  And this job was an employee of the club.

I am sure that some on this site can recall some injury by a caddie.  But caddying is no more dangerous than the activities that same kid will encounter at summer camp (overseen by a lot of counselors barely high school age).

[archie_struthers]

 

lhelp me please....Mike ...Tom

[Sean_A]

Archie:

I hear what you are saying.  This discussion doesn't have to be about the "economics" of caddying, it should also be about golf and the future of golf, and how getting young kids involved at a forecaddying level would not be taking money away from any part of the operation, but would get them outdoors and offline and around golf and golfers.

The amazing thing to me is that ten years ago nobody begrudged the idea of tipping a kid $5 to take their bag FROM THE BAG RACK TO THE TRUNK OF THEIR CAR, but can't figure out how to justify paying him $10-15 to do that AND TO FORECADDIE FOR 18 HOLES!

P.S.  It isn't just the Tour and the USGA that deserve the blame for golf becoming about money ... have you ever gone to the PGA Show or the GCSAA show?  Darn near everybody there is chasing money around, and they have been for the last 20-25 years.

Tom

I think its naive to believe that the main discussion point of caddies for most people would not be be the price point.  One chap was throwing around a figure of $2500 like it was chump change.  Jeepers, if my memberships cost that a year I would drop them.  We all have priorities and responsibilities and I don't believe providing jobs for 13 year olds to the tune of $2500 to carry a bag I am quite happy to do myself is one of mine.  I am happy to discuss the future of golf, but I happen to believe (as has been the case for many a year), that the heart of the game lies with the public player who has probably never taken a caddie and is looking for a cheap and cheerful game of golf followed by a few Bud longnecks.  Perhaps we get a skewed perception of the game from our ivory tower, but caddies are neither here nor there where the future of the game is concerned.

Ciao

[JMEvensky]

RE: Caddying at age 12.

This is current status quo.  Many caddie programs allow kids to begin caddying at age 12, and  this employment is in compliance with most child labor laws.  The liability is minimal.  Most golf course injuries (other than the maintance crew) involve golf carts.  In 15 years of caddying, I remember nothing more than a few kids overcome by the heat.  And these situations required nothing more than the caddie needing to come in and get water and rest and come back the next day.

The only trip to the hospital for a non-maintenence crew employee I recall was the kid picking up golf balls on the driving range.  And this job was an employee of the club.

I am sure that some on this site can recall some injury by a caddie.  But caddying is no more dangerous than the activities that same kid will encounter at summer camp (overseen by a lot of counselors barely high school age).

I agree that an incident is a 1/1,000,000.But what Board would prudently shoulder that risk?Especially if there isn't much benefit gained in the members'/Board's estimation.

[Brent Hutto]

Thank you Sean and Shiv for some mainstream perspective on this whole discussion. There are many possible reasons someone might wish to have the services of a caddie and/or provide employment as such to a young person. None of those reasons appeal to more than a tiny fraction (much less than a percent in my estimation) of USA golfers.

The fact that "supporting" caddies in one way or another is an activity appealing only to a small elite makes no argument for good or ill concerning those who want caddies, those who don't want caddies or the caddies themselves. But asking how caddying can be rejuvenated is akin to asking how we might go about trebling the number of opera companies extant. It is only a meaningful question for a very limited definition of "rejuvenated".

I think it is a very enlightening aspect of this discussion that it seems to be in the top 1% of popularity among threads initiated on this forum in the last year or two.

[Kenny Baer]

I am a member of a very nice club in Atlanta; it has hosted PGA tour events and was in the Top 100 at one time. 

We have about 10-20 caddies and the fee is $50 for 18 holes; that $50 is a minimum.  I take one as often as I can but with my annual income I should probably never take one.  I love golf and hate to ride in a cart but if in one week I happen to be able to play more then 1x there is no way I can pay a caddie; I have to take a cart because you can't walk without a caddie before 2:00 pm any day of the week.  All of our caddies have been there for years and out of say 15 regular caddies, 12 are plain terrible.

To me that is everything that is wrong with American golf; it basically discourages anyone from walking unless you are wealthy enough that an extra $60 per round does not matter.

As long as the cost of a caddie is over $30 per round then it will never flourish; I wish our club would illeminate carts for everyone except those not medically capable and allow people to walk; that way the wealthy would finance the caddies and the rest of us would be able to play golf how it was meant to be; walking from hole to hole.

[Mike Nuzzo]

When I was 12 driving carts from the barn to the shop it was the old caddy that backed one into the creek - 7' high retaining wall....  he wasn't hurt.  

[Mike Tanner]

I usually walk and carry my own bag, only riding when course policy or the situation -- golf outings, etc. mandate it. The rare occasions when I've had a caddie (at private clubs and resorts) were very enjoyable.

As much as I'd like to see caddie programs in widespread use, I don't think it'll ever happen. Cart revenue is too important to public access course operators. There isn't much support for the majority of golfers either. Most have grown up with carts and don't see the need to play on foot.

I applaud the clubs that support caddie programs. But I don't think will ever see anything like the days when a kid could enter the caddie yard, be inspired to take up the game and , if he was dedicated and skillful enough, rise to the heights of Hogan and Nelson.