[TEPaul]

"Take irrigation for example. In the old days you would irrigate when the grass started to show drought stress. When newer systems became available we learned you could irrigate before stress was seen and that led to over application of water."


DonM:

For us laymen on here let's just back-up and talk about the subject of grass or turf "stress" for a moment because too many may think that's always a bad thing or disasterous thing. Is it really in all cases?

What all does or can that (stress) mean from the persepective of the actual biology or morphology (or whatever turf people call it ) of a grass plant.

For instance, what about the fairways of Newport, Maidstone or Fishers Island that have no irrigation systems if they go through a month or more of no rain? They really brown out or practically fry but when it rains again it seems like they come back green in a day or so.

So what's that about? They must be under stress that entire month but because they've been the way they are so long (for so many years) they can inure their survival to that kind of condition, right?

If so what do you guys call something like that? Could it be accurately termed a very long period of natural dormancy?

[Don_Mahaffey]

For us laymen on here let's just back-up and talk about the subject of grass or turf "stress" for a moment because too many may think that's always a bad thing or disasterous thing. Is it really in all cases?

Most of the time when we talk about drought stress we're talking about wilt. I'm sure you've seen it, footprinting, crunch, crunch as you walk, grass turning bluish then to differing shades of black or brown. I never said it was a disastrous thing and that's important to note. But grass does have a permanent wilting point as in deader than a smelt. I wouldn't push that too hard especially while in the transition mode.
Science can help you determine the boundaries of how far you can push before you start to lose desirable turf.

If so what do you guys call something like that? Could it be accurately termed a very long period of natural dormancy?

I've never been to the courses you note, but yes, I think it's fair to say the grass enters dormancy. It's shutting down as much as possible while hanging on to life. Those are courses that believe in what they are doing, but if you’re going to use them as a model to sell firm and fast I think you've got a tough sell ahead of you. Courses built on clay for instance are going to have a tough time keeping grass during month long droughts in the summer with no irrigation. The courses you note are good for demonstrating the durability of some turfs in the right environment with the right management. Grass is tougher than most think, but even at those courses, if you let the carts out on straw dry turf you’re asking for problems. I don't think you can look at the turf at those courses in a vacuum and then apply what you've learned to other soils, climates and grasses. They make it work because of the total systems they have developed, including member acceptance of the conditions. Those systems are certainly worthy of study.

[TEPaul]

"But grass does have a permanent wilting point as in deader than a smelt. I wouldn't push that too hard especially while in the transition mode."


Well then Dandy Don, would you talk to us about when grass is through that "transition mode" and at some ideal degree of natural endurance against long term stress? Would you call that an ultra long period or an ability to stay "dormant"? Isn't that what those unirrigated fairways of Newport, Fishers Island and Maidstone can do after years of getting naturally used to those elongated periods of unirrigated drought?

By the way, I love that term "deader than a smelt" although I've never understood why the smelt gets such minimal respect from us. Have you ever run into a smelt, Don?  Well, I have and I can tell you that you do have to be pretty careful with them. They're very good at playing possum, so to speak, and if you try to do something like pet one that really isn't dead, it can turn around and bite the shit out of you, I'll tell you. I know because it happened to me when I was a kid playing around on a lawn of St Augustine grass in Florida round about 1949.

[Kyle Harris]

"But grass does have a permanent wilting point as in deader than a smelt. I wouldn't push that too hard especially while in the transition mode."


Well then Dandy Don, would you talk to us about when grass is through that "transition mode" and at some ideal degree of natural endurance against long term stress? Would you call that an ultra long period or an ability to stay "dormant"? Isn't that what those unirrigated fairways of Newport, Fishers Island and Maidstone can do after years of getting naturally used to those elongated periods of unirrigated drought?

By the way, I love that term "deader than a smelt" although I've never understood why the smelt gets such minimal respect from us. Have you ever run into a smelt, Don?  Well, I have and I can tell you that you do have to be pretty careful with them. They're very good at playing possum, so to speak, and if you try to do something like pet one that really isn't dead, it can turn around and bite the shit out of you, I'll tell you. I know because it happened to me when I was a kid playing around on a lawn of St Augustine grass in Florida round about 1949.

Tom,

Are you sure they just weren't fire ants?

I think it's important to say that drought stress is caused when the plant is losing more water than it can take in.

Don has a very important point. One thing about the ethic behind Tom's questioning (and it really is an ethic over a specific method) is that the superintendent must be willing to learn what the golf course is telling them, try different methods using a scientific approach to knowledge (hypothesis, testing, accurate data collection and applying the conclusions) and also base their program in sound, minimalistic cultivation and agronomic practices.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Are you sure they just weren't fire ants?"



Yeah, you're probably right about that. I think it was fire ants in that St Augustine grass in Florida back in '49.

I am familiar with the smelt though. When I was a kid my parents used to take us down to this fish restaurant that hung out over the inland waterway in New Symyrna Beach on Sunday evenings back in the late 1940s. That restaurant used to put smelts in the salad for some reason. As a kid I thought that was gross and I used to separate out the dead smelts from the salad but one time I guess one of them wasn't dead because it jumped up off the plate and bit the shit outta me.

[Craig Sweet]

TomPaul...are you sure you aren't confusing the lowly anchovy with the vastly more people friendly smelt?

I love dipping smelt on a nice spring evening when they are running....It generally means the golf season is close at hand!

[RJ_Daley]

One thing's for sure, them smelt (or locally spelled schmelt) don't run like the used to...

I'd suggest that one huge difference when putting a place like Fisher's Island and Newport and such places into a discussion of identifying comparable situations where the line of browning out, summer dormant, lean and fast FWs along side the typical fully used private clubs, or public facilities is stress from rounds played and numbers of carts and vehicles on the summer dormant turf.  Without even considering the many regional soil characteristics in terms of their comparative tendencies to compact more rapidly and detrimentally to root zone survivablity, and the various species and cultivars in how they respond, we have to first look at what number of rounds the facility services.  And, I'd question the power structure of the course management in that one facility has a strong clamoring membership that is constantly making uneducated comparisons, and directing the super, and another facility may have a very strong super with owner support that allows more dictatorial directives as to when to restrict cart traffic, and make the hard calls. 

So, looking for Tom's call to identify 'downsides' to firm and fast and highly conservative turf practices, might be placing greater authority in one or a very few turf manager's hands to make the tough calls.  Yet, some will say that isn't a downside at all and that is progress, which if the turf manager is that good (which I know most that are contributing on here are) then I'm in the camp that it is not a downside; it is a plus sign of better turf management putting the turf health first, behind whims of broad user groups that want it all consistentantly perfect. 

[Joe Hancock]

I'll try to contribute as I can, but concentrating isn't my strong suit at the moment. If I could, I'd like to add short comments from time to time in an attempt to remain in context.

One thing I'd like to start with:

What is healthy turf? This is a fundamental starting point, as what the USGA and universities say vs. what the UK greenkeepers say vs. the golfer...you get my point. As far as I know, there hasn't been any US university research that determines what a healthy turf is, yet when the results of studies are published, they often refer to a green, uniform, consistently growing(leaf production) turf.

Is the management of turf unhealthy if it allows for seasonal drought dormancy cycles? I submit it is a healthy style of management, but I have yet to be proven correct other than by my own observation.

So, what is healthy turf?



Joe

[Joe Hancock]

A weed amongst unhealthy turf, perhaps? Or, a wildflower in a low maintenance rough?
(For discussion purposes only, not to take a position)




Joe

[Adrian_Stiff]

Maybe a point that should be considered when we are talking about what is healthy and what is the right amounts of water, chemicals, food that it needs, that 40,000 pairs of feet per year is in itself unatural behaviour that the plant has to sustain, cutting it to 3mm is also abnormal. Somewhere in there is the right amount of things to do.
That is the superintendents call and what one may do correctly in North Dakota and one may correctly do in North Carolina may be completely different.

[John Gosselin]

I keep reading people talking about less fertilizer, less chemicals, less water, and more organics. What is organics? Could someone give me an example of an organic product that reduces the amount of chemical, fertilizer, or water? How does this "organic" save money?

[Kyle Harris]

Joe's question is perhaps the fundamental launching point for low-impact golf maintenance.

The question really should be: What is the role of turf on the golf course? How healthy does turf need to be in order to fulfill it's role on the golf course?

[John Gosselin]

What's "low impact" mean? What does "healthy" mean when discussing turf?

[BCrosby]

Joe's question is perhaps the fundamental launching point for low-impact golf maintenance.

The question really should be: What is the role of turf on the golf course? How healthy does turf need to be in order to fulfill it's role on the golf course?

Kyle - I like where you want to go, but doesn't there need to be a consensus (at the level of a given club membership) about "[turf's] role on the golf course"?  There is not one at my club and that's why minimalist practices are not going to happen there any time soon.

Bob  

[Kyle Harris]

What's "low impact" mean? What does "healthy" mean when discussing turf?

John,

Minimal contributions from man is low-impact to me.

Healthy? Well, that's what I'm getting at. Healthy turf for a golf course to me is turf that provides a playing surface ideal for the golf course from season to season.

Factors such as golf course design, membership desire, and climate define healthy turf. I'm willing to accept a brown turf which will lose 10-20% each year so long as the conditions are firm to the point where a well-struck 8-iron will lightly dent a green and a well-struck tee shot is liable to roll 20+ yards on a level landing area.

[John Gosselin]

What's "low impact" mean? What does "healthy" mean when discussing turf?

John,

"Minimal contributions from man is low-impact to me."

What do you mean by contributions? Fertilizers? Composed Teas? Rock dust? Fungicides? Growth retardants? Water? Humates? Mowing? Insecticides?



"Healthy? Well, that's what I'm getting at. Healthy turf for a golf course to me is turf that provides a playing surface ideal for the golf course from season to season. "



"Factors such as golf course design, membership desire, and climate define healthy turf. I'm willing to accept a brown turf which will lose 10-20% each year so long as the conditions are firm to the point where a well-struck 8-iron will lightly dent a green and a well-struck tee shot is liable to roll 20+ yards on a level landing area."


Do you think there are many memberships or employers that would be okay with 20% turf loss on greens each year? What replaces the loss of turf? If it is healthy why did it die?

[TEPaul]

"TomPaul...are you sure you aren't confusing the lowly anchovy with the vastly more people friendly smelt?"

Craig Sweet:

Maybe you're right. It might've been an anchovy that jumped off that salad plate back in '49 and bit the shit outta me.



"What is healthy turf? This is a fundamental starting point, as what the USGA and universities say vs. what the UK greenkeepers say vs. the golfer...you get my point. As far as I know, there hasn't been any US university research that determines what a healthy turf is, yet when the results of studies are published, they often refer to a green, uniform, consistently growing(leaf production) turf.

Is the management of turf unhealthy if it allows for seasonal drought dormancy cycles? I submit it is a healthy style of management, but I have yet to be proven correct other than by my own observation."


JoeH and all:

Wouldn't the healthiest turf be turf that's really durable (naturally? durable) and resistent to diseases and such?

[Kyle Harris]

"TomPaul...are you sure you aren't confusing the lowly anchovy with the vastly more people friendly smelt?"

Craig Sweet:

Maybe you're right. It might've been an anchovy that jumped off that salad plate back in '49 and bit the shit outta me.



"What is healthy turf? This is a fundamental starting point, as what the USGA and universities say vs. what the UK greenkeepers say vs. the golfer...you get my point. As far as I know, there hasn't been any US university research that determines what a healthy turf is, yet when the results of studies are published, they often refer to a green, uniform, consistently growing(leaf production) turf.

Is the management of turf unhealthy if it allows for seasonal drought dormancy cycles? I submit it is a healthy style of management, but I have yet to be proven correct other than by my own observation."


JoeH and all:

Wouldn't the healthiest turf be turf that's really durable (naturally? durable) and resistent to diseases and such?

Tom,

Yes, however, maintenance practices like cutting and rolling are not conducive to healthy turf.

Turf cut at heights like .350 and .110 are inherently under mechanical stress at the start. In fact, all golf course maintenance is centered around the idea that the turf is going to have to put up with the stress of being maintained for golf!

[Michael Rossi]

TEPaul,

The biggest impediment to implementing your ideal program is TELEVISED PGA TOUR GOLF.

Not PGA - NBC, CBS or ABC with the filters on the lens of the camera and the unsightly areas out of shot. By Saturday and Sunday the course is flat out BEAT, the fariways+greens are  brown the tee decks are divot riddled and the rest of the course is worn.

[Joe Hancock]

TEPaul,

I agree that "durability" is an important part of this whole "less is more" ideology. It's a hard thing to define, however.

One has to start somewhere, and that usually is with wuss ass grass. Then you have to teach it to either:

a) exist with less

b) die

If it learns to exist with less, it will because it adapted. If it gets less water, it will survive with less water because the plant structure will change in a way to conserve moisture. Deeper roots, thicker cell walls, a woodier structure will all be characteristics of this adapted plant.

But here's the thing; I think this is what happens, and yet I know of no university study to document this process of "de-wussifying". So, it's a hard program to pitch until people start to do it and see the benefits.

"Woody: a great characteristic of turf, too"

 

[Joe Hancock]

Kyle,

You're right about mowing and rolling and many other cultural practices and what that means to having healthy turf. My thoughts are that you produce the healthy turf and it will need less of those cultural practices. My idea is to be able to triplex mow 100,000 sq. ft. of greens and do it without having to empty baskets....

On that note, a thought about irrigation as it pertains to health. Don and others have mentioned it to some extent, so I'll just present this as a question:

Have you ever observed the difference in soil structure, on the same property, between a normally irrigated turf and a non-irrigated turf? If not, check it out once the growing season reappears....probably in about 6 more months here in Michigan, the way this winter has been....

Joe

[TEPaul]

Joe Hancock:

Never let ANYONE try to tell you that you don't have a wonderful way of putting things with this subject.

"Wuss ass" grass???!?

That's beautiful. Why has grass gotten so "wuss ass" in the first place then? And you're definitely knee-slappin' danged right that some of these universities and other agronomic entities better start teaching people some of the finer points of "de-wussifying" grass.

[RJ_Daley]

Which brings us back to a point I suggested we ask.  Would such a focused program of teaching and researching new ways of minimalistically maintaining, and more favorable to naturally formulated methods be embraced by the big turf science schools?  I'm asking, not declaring such. 

Joe, are you saying that your ideal of healthy and hearty turf needs less cultural practices like aeration? 

Isn't there a model or concept of something we might call, "Integrated Turf Management" (not just integrated pest management IPM) that sets forth an goal of minimal use where necessary of agri-chems where emergency impending turf deterioration of condition is detected, yet consistently promotes primarily cultural and natural practices when at all possible, even if the consistent look of turf is sacrificed for the more conservative practices that still yields reasonable conditions to play the game within the spirit of the game?

Isn't Scott Anderson in that camp of a balanced lean and conservative system of integrating turf management in several approaches from the micro conservative agri-chem applications and conservative watering to the natural processes of the plant adapting to nature's conditions whenever possible?  Where is that "integrated" approach taught as a formal academic presentation? 

Or, do the schools teach turf students that "these are the best high tech modern techniques" based on the best we have developed in agri-chem industries to produce the most publicly perceivable lush turf to save your jobs when folks hold you to high standards of green and beautiful turf, all the time?   

[Joe Hancock]

Joe, are you saying that your ideal of healthy and hearty turf needs less cultural practices like aeration? 

Not necessarily, Dick. Number one thing a grass plant needs is oxygen. There is rarely a time that it doesn't need a little help on golf turf.

However, if you think about it, the number one reason there may not be enough oxygen in the soil is because it's been displaced by water. Water sometimes comes naturally, sometimes not. The obvious soil condition that would highlight this would be silts and clays....not much oxygen to begin with.

So, the answer is a definite maybe.......

Joe

[Joe Hancock]

Or, do the schools teach turf students that "these are the best high tech modern techniques" based on the best we have developed in agri-chem industries to produce the most publicly perceivable lush turf to save your jobs when folks hold you to high standards of green and beautiful turf, all the time?   

The schools like nothing better than bragging about their successful alum who are at the famous such-and-such country club, who hosted the bigger-than-life tournament who-knows-how-many-times.....nothing brings in more students than success stories.

Joe

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