Jeff W:
The issue is not about whether one wants to forget or not forget. It's about toughness with a tie breaker for those selections that can offer architectural qualities plus having an additional par-5 and par-3 thrown into the mix.
Jeff, the 15th and 17th at Champ's PGA National can play dramatically different -- your comments may have come from just how the course set-up was that day. The wind pattern is also different. With a northwest breeze -- not uncommong during the winter months -- you play into a headwin at #15 and at #17 it becomes even more demanding as you face a heavy cross wind from left-to-right -- just watch the final groups as they came to that hole during the final round last year.
I never said Long Cove's 15th is easy -- I just opined The Champ's tougher and the '08 stats back me up on that point.
You also make the error -- in my mind -- that a long par-4 that is devoid of anything really serious like OB / H20 is tougher than a hole that has such items. The added par-3 in my mix is not some sort of giveaway. Not the least. Many folks might make a bogey on the long par-4's you mentioned but the DB and TB possibilities are limited.
Yes, the 18th at Long Cove is a tough hole -- but I ask you again to really think about what you have to overcome with the 16th at The Champ -- the slightest push of the tee shot and it's Elvis land -- pull it left and the shot the green is anything but a piece of cake.
Geeze, I can't believe I am being such a stuck-in-the-mud in defending a Florida golf course !!!
John VB:
The 15th at Oakmont is a par-4 as of 2008 / 2009 golf accounts.
In regards to othe other candidates you mentioned -- PGA West -- the 16th there is a good par-5 with the massive bunker-drop off left of the green -- but there's not enough going on demanding wise until then -- the 18th at The Champ wins that argument going away. On the par-3 side the Alcatraz hole is a good one -- but the water is more ornamental -- not the case w either par-3 hole at The Champ.
In regards to Kiawah -- that's a different story but it's still tough to match the par-5 side. The par-3 side is a draw. I also think the 16th at The Champ is more demanding hole than the finale at Kiawah. The H20 dimension is alive and well in FL.
John, Bellerive is a good call -- but frankly from an architecture standpoint as a tiebreaker I'd throw Long Cove, TPC Sawgrass and Firestone / South ahead of it.
Bill:
Please -- the only sure fire winner you have at Riviera is the two par-4's. The par-5 and par-3 candidates are not the tough when held against The Champ. Good call but frankly TPC Sawgrass and Kiawah Ocean are ahead of the Pacific Palisades gem in my mind.
If Champ v Riviera plays out you lose on the par-5 side, the par-3 side and the 16th at The Champ is every bit the equal of the par-4 15 at Riviera.