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Joe Bausch

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In the November 11, 1923 edition of the Philadelphia Public Ledger were some nice photos of the recently completed North course at Philmont..... you know, the place that many believed and some still believe was designed by William Flynn.  You'll notice in the text accompanying the picture on the left an attribution to Willie Park.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 06:34:30 AM by Joe Bausch »
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The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Phil_the_Author

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2009, 07:39:31 PM »
Joe,

Admittedly I know nothing about the course and club, but was wondering if Flynn may have overseen the construction of the course using Park's plans and if that is the reason for the conflicting attributions?

Joe Bausch

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 07:46:05 PM »
Joe,

Admittedly I know nothing about the course and club, but was wondering if Flynn may have overseen the construction of the course using Park's plans and if that is the reason for the conflicting attributions?

Well, I've been inquiring about who constructed the course myself.  The old stories go that William Gordon constructed the course and may have called in Flynn to help out.  But I have another very detailed article on the early history of Philmont (I'll post it soon) that suggests Henry Strouse was the construction foreman and there is no mention of Flynn.

Also, the author formerly known as Wayne Morrison and currently known as 'guest' says there is no evidence at all at this point that Flynn was involved at Philmont North.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

JESII

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 08:47:23 PM »
For what it's worth, Philmont North contains as many good to great holes as most of the other really good courses I have played. It gets crammed near the clubhouse, but the majority is really good.

Note the trees in the pictures...most images from 80 years ago show courses devoid of trees that are now overgrown, I bet Philmont has fewer today than in those pictures...but they're bigger...

Kyle Harris

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 08:49:03 PM »
Jim,

In one of the articles Joe found, it is mentioned that Park was reluctant to design the course over the property with such tree cover.

Joe,

Can you post that article now?

JESII

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2009, 08:51:12 PM »
What do you all make of the terminology..."It was recently completed on the original plans by Willie Park"?

To me that sounds like a disconnect between planner and builder...

Kyle Harris

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2009, 08:54:54 PM »
What do you all make of the terminology..."It was recently completed on the original plans by Willie Park"?

To me that sounds like a disconnect between planner and builder...

Jim,

I just recently discovered another article that uses similar language with regard to Park and the PSU Golf Course.




Among the construction people used by Park were both Frank James and his brother, Mungo.

Joe Bausch

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2009, 09:02:29 PM »
Jim,

In one of the articles Joe found, it is mentioned that Park was reluctant to design the course over the property with such tree cover.

Joe,

Can you post that article now?

Tomorrow!  I don't have a digital copy handy right now.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2009, 09:12:58 PM »
Henry Strouse was a prominent member of Philmont and chairman of the Greens Committee for many years.

In the early/mid teens, he also aided Hugh Wilson during the construction of some new holes on the South Course at Philmont as well as the significant revamping of others.   He possibly may have hired Gordon to do the actual construction on North under his supervision but that is pure speculation and nothing I've seen anywhere indicates that Flynn was involved on any level.

The later article Joe has also clearly states the North was a Park design from the plans and as mentioned, it took some effort to convince Park to design it because southern PA woodlands was not an optimum choice in his mind.

Also, there exists a letter from J. Wood Platt of the GAP to Ellis Gimbel, the President of Philmont, congratulating the club on its Park design.

Willie Park Jr. was a GIANT.   This should be cause for celebration at Philmont in my opinion, but I do understand the reluctance to let go of what had been the prevalent thinking during our lifetime.

As Kyle's article mentions, he may have been the most famous golf architect in the world in the mid-20s...certainly in the top 2 or 3.

His work is vastly underrated these days, and to find one that is almost in original condition is like finding a fine gem in the rough.

« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 09:16:25 PM by MikeCirba »

JSlonis

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2009, 09:56:39 PM »
As Sully mentioned above...I can't get over the size of the trees in those early pictures of Philmont.

Joe, et al:

Has anyone currently at Philmont now recognized Park as the actual architect? 

Mike_Cirba

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2009, 10:02:28 PM »
As Sully mentioned above...I can't get over the size of the trees in those early pictures of Philmont.

Joe, et al:

Has anyone currently at Philmont now recognized Park as the actual architect? 


Jamie/Jim,

Isn't that amazing??   I would have never figured that it was built largely in a mature forest, and it's also amazing from looking at aerials of the time how very little the course has changed over the years.

In fact, it may be the most pristine example of Willie Park's work in this country, truth be told.

Of course, we now have Willie Park to blame for the 9th, which I used to call the only bad golf hole that William Flynn ever built!  ;)

Honestly though, I would agree with Jim's assessment;   the middle holes on each nine are absolutely outstanding and it's terrific overall, despite some cramped, strange, and severely sloped holes near the clubhouse on each nine.


Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2009, 10:07:51 PM »
From the rather lengthy later article in the Philadelphia North American of February 1, 1925:

"...On the Philmont North course, it was necessary to cut through woods on every fairway...the club turned to Willie Park,famed British professional golfer and designer of courses,for advice. Park was reluctant to submit a design when he finished his survey;for the estimated cost was staggering.Enough trees to build a town had to be felled;enough rock to dam half the streams in the state had to be blasted out if the Jackson woods were to become a golf course."

"The cost did not lessen Philmont's enthusiasm... Park's original design was followed only in a general way. Henry Strouse, always an authority on maintenance and construction work at Philmont,was named director in charge of construction,and as the work progressed, he changed changed the plans to meet conditions overlooked in the beginning. His judgment in making these changes can hardly be questioned for the North course is just about the supreme effort in course building."

The article does not mention Park's return to England because of illness or any involvement of Flynn as an architect/designer/advisor or the construction firm of Toomey & Flynn.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 10:11:15 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
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David Stamm

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2009, 10:26:16 PM »

Willie Park Jr. was a GIANT.   This should be cause for celebration at Philmont in my opinion, but I do understand the reluctance to let go of what had been the prevalent thinking during our lifetime.

As Kyle's article mentions, he may have been the most famous golf architect in the world in the mid-20s...certainly in the top 2 or 3.

His work is vastly underrated these days, and to find one that is almost in original condition is like finding a fine gem in the rough.




It's funny, but the same thing happened at Hacienda GC in La Habra, CA. They claimed for years that Max Behr was the original architect. Despite Tommy showing the club that in fact Willie Watson was the original architect, they resisted for some reason. Watson was very well known during the golden age, but for some reason, they put up a fight. It makes no sense to me.


Agreed Mike, Park was a giant, and I'm gaining an appreciation for him the more and more I study. And I aslo agree his work is underrated. His work at The Maidstone is very special.
"The object of golf architecture is to give an intelligent purpose to the striking of a golf ball."- Max Behr

JSlonis

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2009, 10:57:47 PM »
As Sully mentioned above...I can't get over the size of the trees in those early pictures of Philmont.

Joe, et al:

Has anyone currently at Philmont now recognized Park as the actual architect? 


Jamie/Jim,

Isn't that amazing??   I would have never figured that it was built largely in a mature forest, and it's also amazing from looking at aerials of the time how very little the course has changed over the years.

In fact, it may be the most pristine example of Willie Park's work in this country, truth be told.

Of course, we now have Willie Park to blame for the 9th, which I used to call the only bad golf hole that William Flynn ever built!  ;)

Honestly though, I would agree with Jim's assessment;   the middle holes on each nine are absolutely outstanding and it's terrific overall, despite some cramped, strange, and severely sloped holes near the clubhouse on each nine.



Mike,

Agreed.  The 9th is one of my least favorite par 5's anywhere.

They added some new tees to a few holes a couple of years ago.  The most significant are the 7th, 11th and 14th holes.  #11 is just brutal from the new back tee at about 235 yds.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2009, 10:59:51 PM by JSlonis »

Joe Bausch

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #14 on: January 07, 2009, 04:04:18 AM »
Here is one of the best of the earlier Philmont threads (from 2006):

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23370.70.html
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2009, 08:23:14 AM »
Just a note on Strouse.   In around 1915 Tillinghast reported that Philmont South was a nice course, but had no artificial bunkers  and clearly needed some, and the men in charge of PHilmont, Ellis Gimbel, etc., saw what "experts" like Wilson, Crump, Smith, Klauder, et.al. had done at Cobb's Creek and were greatly impressed.

By 1917, a Philadelphia Inquirer article by "Billy Bunker" talking about who in Philadelphia might be affected by a recent decision on amateurism of architects wrote;

"Many of the golf courses here were built in the old days when the architect was practically unknown.  In recent years, many of these courses have been remodeled.  The Philadelphia Country Club was changed and greatly improved by Walter Travis, one of the many amateurs who have been affected by the new ruling which bars as amateurs men who "construct" (my emphasis for a term of the time indicating and including "design) golf courses.   A.W. Tillinghast, a Philadelphian, who intends to keep on with his golf course construction work, remodeled both the St. Davids and the Old York Road Country Clubs."

"Both of the Merion Cricket Club courses were built under the direction of Hugh Wilson who also laid out the Seaview course.   Philmont is largely the work of Henry Strouse and Hugh Wilson.  Aronimink has had many architects including George Klauder..."

Joe Bausch

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a Park attribution)
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2009, 10:07:28 AM »
If you attended the Tom Paul GCA Barn-fest in December, you received a copy of this article by J.E. Ford from the February 1, 1925 edition of The North American:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Mike_Cirba

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2009, 11:22:49 AM »
Was Fairmount Park landscape artist Ogelsby Paul any relation to our own Tom? 

TEPaul

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2009, 03:04:14 PM »
Mike:

I wondered about that myself for some time and coincidentally was given a book for Xmas about the great houses of the Main Line and I saw his name quite a bit. Apparently, my grandfather, James W. Paul, who created the place that is now Cabrini College and St. David's golf course, had a brother, I think his name was Frank (?). Oglesby Paul was his son and he was quite the landscape architect. I'm not very good at family trees so what does that make Oglesby, something like my cousin removed about four and half times or something?  ;)

I've been doing a bit of research on William Gordon (Philmont constructor?) and the evolution of the USGA's Green Section about this time (1920-23). There's a lot of tie-in here and it's no real wonder that Gordon went from the superintendent of Carter Tested Seed Co. construction division to Toomey and Flynn in 1923.

I now have much clearer idea of what Piper and Oakley of the US Dept of Agriculture and the likes of the Wilsons, Harban, Marshall, Byers, Vanderpool et al were doing at this time and what it specifically was they were trying to both prevent and promote. It's some pretty heavy sledding reading all this detail stuff about early agronomics and the formation of the USGA's Green Section but in toto it's great background material. I'll tell you one thing----that Alan Wilson sure did have a commendable sense of ethics!



FUNNY NUGGET:

In one letter to Piper, A. Wilson explains that some guy by the name of Worthington (apparently in the commerical seed and machinery business) is a born troublemaker. And he goes on to say he's like Max Behr who's never really happy unless he's involved in some controversy with someone.   ;)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 03:17:20 PM by TEPaul »

Joe Bausch

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Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2009, 03:13:37 PM »
Here is the obituary for Oglesby Paul from the October 7, 1915 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

TEPaul

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2009, 04:39:23 PM »
In that day and age using a club member (director) like Henry Strouse (who had served on the Board of GAP) to oversee the construction of the course doesn't seem to have been unusual. At GMGC the same thing was done---eg the club's Secretary/Treasurer, Weston Hibbs, oversaw the daily construction and work on the course for the first three years. He actually lived at the club with his wife.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 04:43:02 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2009, 05:21:15 PM »
Tom,

You mentioned, "FUNNY NUGGET: In one letter to Piper, A. Wilson explains that some guy by the name of Worthington (apparently in the commerical seed and machinery business) is a born troublemaker. And he goes on to say he's like Max Behr who's never really happy unless he's involved in some controversy with someone."

Do you know which of the Worthington's that was? I would imagine that he was related to the man behind Shawnee and the Buckwood Inn who owned the business that sold the Worthington Tractor line for golf courses and other course products including seed.   

Mike_Cirba

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2009, 05:41:04 PM »
To give folks an idea of the times, Oglesby Paul died of complications (likely infection) from Tonsillitis!   :o

Phil,

I'm betting that was Tilly's Worthington!   ;D


Phil_the_Author

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2009, 06:15:35 PM »
Mike,

Actually there were several prominent Worthington's starting with the father and then his son's who were all Philadelphia area golfers.

TEPaul

Re: early photos of Philmont North (and a 2ND Willie Park attribution!)
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2009, 06:18:10 PM »
"Do you know which of the Worthington's that was? I would imagine that he was related to the man behind Shawnee and the Buckwood Inn who owned the business that sold the Worthington Tractor line for golf courses and other course products including seed."


Phil:

I do not know exactly who the Worthington was A. Wilson referred to (the series of letters don't say so far) but it wouldn't surprise me if the one you mentioned is the same one. Obviously Alan Wilson knew whomever it was he mentioned and the thing that's coming out loud and clear here is Piper and Oakley, the Wilsons and the others involved in the formation of the USGA's Green Section were pretty mad at the so-called "seedmen". They thought they were ripping off American golf and promoting a bunch of agronomic research crap that was producing some pretty poor results on courses.

It seems like this USGA Green Section research and philosophy at that time was heavily into the bent grass "vegetative" method for particularly putting greens.   
« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 06:21:55 PM by TEPaul »