Commercialism is doing great harm to a noble sport

[Bill_McBride]

I will only travel for The Lane. 

PS. I think The Lane smokes that Painswick place of Richard Goodale.

Apparently you haven't trod the sacred fairways of Painswick - yet!

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

I am blessed as I have the best of the golfing world more or less at my finger tips. It suit‘s my game and that game is in my blood. Why would I leave my Heaven or as you see it - my Ivory Tower - for a trip across the pond. I have enough Cousins on this side, not to mention some wonderful old 9 & 18 hole courses to walk around smiling as the rest of the world struggles to understand what they have done to our game.

Think I’m the one with the big grin.  Eat your heart out Mike, plus I have a selection of Single Malts that would make you nearly give up golf – note the word was nearly.

Melvyn

PS I have always been willing to share my good fortune, so come over and play some of our great old courses like Elie, Cullen, Bridge of Allan and of course Askernish. However is your game that flexible that you will be able to cope with playing golf the original way

PPS Bill forgive them because they just don’t understand.

[JESII]

I would think the faction of commercialism devoted to drainage has been a boon to golf on this side of the pond...(the left)...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jim

Well, I keep telling you to build your courses in the correct locations, if you can’t listen to advice just don’t moan.

The Left side – what’s this, left winger, new USSR or pink communist side. The banker have already beaten you to it with ‘what’s ours is ours and what’s yours is also ours comrade customer’.  Well you started it with ‘left’.

Melvyn

[Mike Sweeney]

rest of the world struggles to understand what they have done to our game.

Melvyn,

You need to step outside your neighborhood a little more often and understand what is really going on:

"In 1995, the St Andrews Links Trust introduced guaranteed commercial tee-off times for corporate UK and overseas clients.  Keith Prowse Ltd, the market leader in the UK for the provision, marketing and management of corporate hospitality packages at major sporting, cultural and social events, was asked to manage this commercial allocation on a worldwide basis.  Subsequently, the “Old Course Experience” brand was established, under which the times are sold and marketed."

It is not just this side of the pond Melvyn. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

What's awesome about that deal, Mike, is it includes carts buggies, very nice carts buggies not only supplied with GPS but of a custom "narrow-gauge" width that enables them to cross the Swilcan Bridge with room to spare.

[Kyle Harris]

rest of the world struggles to understand what they have done to our game.

Melvyn,

You need to step outside your neighborhood a little more often and understand what is really going on:

"In 1995, the St Andrews Links Trust introduced guaranteed commercial tee-off times for corporate UK and overseas clients.  Keith Prowse Ltd, the market leader in the UK for the provision, marketing and management of corporate hospitality packages at major sporting, cultural and social events, was asked to manage this commercial allocation on a worldwide basis.  Subsequently, the “Old Course Experience” brand was established, under which the times are sold and marketed."

It is not just this side of the pond Melvyn. 

That's okay Mike, in 50 years when the High Green is inside the Eden Estuary, Melvyn can tell us about placing courses in the right place. 

[Mike Sweeney]

What's awesome about that deal, Mike, is it includes carts buggies, very nice carts buggies not only supplied with GPS but of a custom "narrow-gauge" width that enables them to cross the Swilcan Bridge with room to spare.

Mark,

Then we can head to the spa with Monty at Turnburry!

"The venue for the 138th Open Championship, Turnberry Resort offers world class golf on the Ailsa, Kintyre and Arran courses, combined with exceptional teaching facilities in the Colin Montgomerie Links Golf Academy. The opulent spa enjoys stunning ocean views offering a wide range of exquisite treatments.   The outdoor activity centre has a range of captivating country pursuits for all ages."

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

Just today I was reading articles of congestion on TOC, the New followed by the Duffer 12 hole course required extending to a full 18. Through this report cost and charges had been agreed to help originally the congestion. However if you live in St Andrews, as a sort of share holder of the Links you get a good discounts. So nothing really new here, it’s just down to market forces and getting everyone a game on TOC in particular. 

Melvyn

PS If The St Andrews course were not in demand form visitors there would not be a problem and the fee could drop. So you can have some control over this problem – simple stop coming over here playing our courses and the cost will go down – yet again you guys over the pond are to blame, this time it’s the high cost to play at St Andrews.

PS Kyle - so I still have 50 years to keep telling you - great that will be fun

[Mike Sweeney]

PS If The St Andrews course were not in demand form visitors there would not be a problem and the fee could drop. So you can have some control over this problem – simple stop coming over here playing our courses and the cost will go down – yet again you guys over the pond are to blame, this time it’s the high cost to play at St Andrews.

Melvyn,

Here is the US we have Bethpage Black, a US Open course that could charge 3-4 times what they currently do. However, unlike The Links Trust, New York State and the USGA who did the renovation are true to the heritage of being for the public golfer, and they charge taxpayers $50-60 and everyone else $100-120. How does that compare with The Old Course? 

Just remember, Donald Trump is Scottish!

[Kyle Harris]

Melvyn,

I only hope we get to share those 50 years alive. See you in 2010.

[Mark Bourgeois]

What's awesome about that deal, Mike, is it includes carts buggies, very nice carts buggies not only supplied with GPS but of a custom "narrow-gauge" width that enables them to cross the Swilcan Bridge with room to spare.

Mark,

Then we can head to the spa with Monty at Turnburry!

"The venue for the 138th Open Championship, Turnberry Resort offers world class golf on the Ailsa, Kintyre and Arran courses, combined with exceptional teaching facilities in the Colin Montgomerie Links Golf Academy. The opulent spa enjoys stunning ocean views offering a wide range of exquisite treatments.   The outdoor activity centre has a range of captivating country pursuits for all ages."

The Tahn-beddy practice facility is awesome dude -- like the Scots say, this place is "on"!

Here's a pic:


I've got one of Monty's autographed Titleist caps -- maybe worth big ££££ now that's he gone over to Ca££away !!!

[Mike Sweeney]

I've got one of Monty's autographed Titleist caps -- maybe worth big ££££ now that's he gone over to Ca££away !!!

Well you need a sweater to match that cap:



"As Monty swings into the European Golf Tour season he will wear luxury cashmere sweaters and shirts produced by Hawick-based Peter Scott & Co.

Speaking at the Abu Dhabi Golf Championship in the United Arab Emirates, Colin Montgomerie said: "I am delighted to be joining the Peter Scott team - they have been delivering the highest quality knitwear to the golfing fraternity for many years and, to me, they are the leaders in the field."

He added: "To be linked with a Scottish company perfectly placed to service the needs of all discerning golfers, professionals and amateurs alike gives me a feeling of great pride."

Discussions are also set to get underway on an exclusive Monty Collection of Peter Scott knitwear."

[Mark Bourgeois]

Good thing Cable crashed last year and not just so we Yanks can afford our annual trip to $t Andrews.  These sweaters will set us back 175 quid!  I guess we wouldn't have seen this in the old Scotland, but now it's all Cool Brittania...

There is cashmere and there is cashmere. Peter Scott cashmere is definitely the latter. The discerning buyer will know the differences that set it apart from lesser quality substitutes. The key difference is the fibre that went in to the yarn in the first place. It comes from the finest underhair of the Cashmere goat living on the frigid plateaus of Mongolia and China. Evolution has created an extremely warm layer for these unlikely providers to fashion. Peter Scott cashmere is rarer still in that they only accept a small fraction of the fibres obtained that meet their high quality standards. The result is a strong yarn (1 ply and 21 gauge) that will last many seasons, unlike its many poor relations which tend to bobble or lose shape."

Apparently, plain old regular cashmere no longer passes immigration in this new Scotland of Trump and Madonna...

[Jeff_Brauer]

How does Bendelow and other gca's working for the Spaulding Corp. fit into the commericialism of golf?  Pretty well I would say, in spreading golf to the masses, no?

[Lyne Morrison]

And Peter and Lyne, just try to get through the day without one good antimetabole.

Mark - great word - right up there with 'crikey'..

'ask not what antimetabole can do for you – ask what you can do for antimetabole' 

Cheers -- Lyne

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I think you've hit on an interesting aspect of GCA, namely, the photogenic influence on GCA.

Think of all the pictures you've seen of a residential community with a golf course.  Invariably, the "photogenic" nature of the GCA impacts/influences real estate sales.

Is the "photogenic" aspect responsible for fountains, waterfalls and other features that appeal to the perspective golfer's eye, versus those aspects of GCA that impact/influence PLAY of the golf course ?

It would seem that modern day golfers are "smitten" by the visuals, first and foremost.

That's the lure, that's what brings them to visit the golf course.

It's akin to form versus substance.

One might conclude that having a golf course that's both an architectural and playing treat, combined with being visually pleasing is the ideal, yet, it would seem, in some cases, that the visual element out performs the playing element, and that can't be good for golf.  

Like a photo of a meal, until you actually taste the product, no matter how good the photo, you can't evaluate the quality of the product/experience.

Isn't it the same way with golf courses ?

[Sean_A]

PS If The St Andrews course were not in demand form visitors there would not be a problem and the fee could drop. So you can have some control over this problem – simple stop coming over here playing our courses and the cost will go down – yet again you guys over the pond are to blame, this time it’s the high cost to play at St Andrews.

Melvyn,

Here is the US we have Bethpage Black, a US Open course that could charge 3-4 times what they currently do. However, unlike The Links Trust, New York State and the USGA who did the renovation are true to the heritage of being for the public golfer, and they charge taxpayers $50-60 and everyone else $100-120. How does that compare with The Old Course? 

Just remember, Donald Trump is Scottish!

Sweeney

You are right.  The Links Trust are a load of swine and should be treated accordingly. 

Ciao

[Mark_F]

Peter Thomson's opinions can be fairly easily dismissed, as he is very adept at saying one thing and practicing another.

For someone who won five Open Championships, his penchant for designing greens that can only be approached through the air is remarkable, and remarkably tiresome.

[Mike Sweeney]

Sweeney

You are right.  The Links Trust are a load of swine and should be treated accordingly. 

Just to be clear, I did not call The Links Trust swine. There are market forces on both The Links Trust and the R&A and USGA that put them in positions to make bad decisions. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

Melvyn likes to put all the blame across the pond. My friend Alfie takes a more balanced approach looking at both sides of the equation and still is able to have fun with taking a few pokes at us Americans.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/interviewward.html

Where has Alfie gone?

[Melvyn Morrow]

Come on Guys there is one hell of a difference,  Mike you mentioned it Heritage to the golfing public, Well we,  Scotland’s public and golfers are happy to share our history, not just something that only goes back to the 1776 (Christ, my family have been playing golf at St Andrews well before that date). The history of our game is older than many Nations in the world today.

The TOC & St Andrews as the Home of Golf offers more than just playing golf. You can walk in the footsteps of the real greats, not just the modern players (who worship at the yardage/distance alters). The First Tee or the 18th Fairway on TOC alone makes the golfer tingle and dream the impossible dream of being The Open Champion.

The Course alone has history and that’s why you want to play it, yet with all of our visitors you don’t tend to see us complaining, saying this is ours so what’s wrong with your 15,000 courses, we welcome you with open arms. Even though the number of visitors at times interferes with our ability to play a round when we want.

We are not the ones forcing you to play any of our courses or even the Castle Course, which you would never find me on that abomination, but many seem happy to pay the price for Golf’s equivalent of Disneyland (totally unreal and artificial). 

The history, the location, the atmosphere combined with the balanced natural of the surrounding landscape allows Nature to work in total harmony with the Golfer. This is not just found at St Andrews but at many smaller out of the ways towns and villages though out our little country. Costs to play these courses are unbelievable cheap but of course you will probably have to walk and distance/yardage details are more or less non existent. But then you have to first resolve why you are playing, for fun or to win (either against yourself or others).

Melvyn

PS Had you answered ‘fun’ then my friend you have passed through those Pearly Gates and have seen the ‘Spirit of the Golf’. 



PPS  Sean,  Sorry, I for one do not share you opinion of the Links Trust. They have a difficult job to done, however I have no problem with moaning at the R&A because they DO have competent people there, but they seem to be overlooked by those who believe the only true policy is sticking their heads in the sand when encountering a problem.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Mike, I played golf with Alfie a couple of years ago at a new course south-east of Glasgow. He was, as always, utterly delightful company.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mike

I don’t blame you Americans re the problems with golf, but I certainly blame our Governing Bodies for inaction and the inability to act for the good of the game.

I have absolutely no problems with my American cousins, half my comment are based upon posts and article I have read from your side of the pond, I am just stating my opinion and there are times I inject some humour into my statements that have gone over your heads and been taken as an attack against your Nation. That was never and never will be my intention.

Yes I voice my opinion if I perceive that something is wrong, but in the hope of generating a debate. Believing with 1500 people APPARENTLY interested in GCA and the wellbeing of golf would get a great debate started. Alas apathy reins just as strongly at GCA.com as it does in everywhere else.

Yet, rest assure I will in my most humble way try and fight the good fight for what I consider the heart and minds of golf. Perhaps I am harder on you guys over there but that is because you represent the majority in the word of golf. Lack of interest, apathy, whatever, it’s magnified greatly by your numbers, so sometimes I may have tried too hard, but we need people that care about the future. I’m not one to site back and watch change for the sake of change, but I believe we are fast coming to a cross roads regards to the future of golf in the world today. I just want all to understand what they may loose if they do nothing. For that I am totally guilty and will offer no defence.

Melvyn

PS  As for Old Alfie, miss him and his comments (Alfie – so does Sue). But to my discredit I have not contacted him since last summer.     

[Mike Sweeney]

This is not just found at St Andrews but at many smaller out of the ways towns and villages though out our little country. Costs to play these courses are unbelievable cheap but of course you will probably have to walk and distance/yardage details are more or less non existent. But then you have to first resolve why you are playing, for fun or to win (either against yourself or others).

Melvyn,

I keep a handicap with my friend Jim Kennedy's golf course at Hotchkiss. Other than age, please tell me how this is any different than anything that you just described.

http://www.hotchkiss.org/AboutHotchkiss/GolfCourse.asp

Maine is filled with courses that you just desribed, and I play them often with Mr Moore.

I keep a membership at Enniscrone in Ireland, built by the true minimalist Eddie Hackett. Reality is the course struggled until they built a clubhouse and now I have not been there for years but they are building hotels and condos around the entrance. They are selling out to commercialism.

Pinehurst and St Andrews have both sold out to commercialism. It does not mean that I do not want to play The Old Course.

Melvyn, stop lecturing about that which you don't understand. I have been to Scotland, Ireland and Europe. I hold memberships in Ireland and the US. I have seen both sides of the equation, and you have not. That is fine and in many ways I am jealous of what you do have. However, in the word of Senator Pat Moynihan, "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts."

Off to work now. Cheers.

PS. Just saw you updated post, but decided to keep the above to take a poke back. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ross said in "Golf Has Never Failed Me" that Americans know how to make a business out of everything.  In other words, it seems like he came over with the idea that GBI courses weren't all they could be, but was confident that Americans would make a way to make the game thrive.  Its still the only country (I haven't looked at stats in a while) that has achieved golf participation similar to Scotland.

Is it just possible that, like it or not, commercialism is simply a given for us to enjoy golf? BP, Pinehurst and even Sand Hills are all viable commercial models, properly done.  So are many courses within housing and many moderate priced public courses like my Sand Creek Station in the small town of Newton, KS. (it has housing and charges about $35 because of the "subsidy"