Toughest Forced Carries you have played

[Scott_Burroughs]

A couple more:

#12 at Chechessee Creek (from "not supposed to play from  there" tips)

#9 at Pacific Dunes into a 25 mph headwind with a sideways driving rain in your face.

[Ed_Baker]

#'s 1,3, at Succesion from the tips with the wind up.

[JohnV]

Scott,

#5 at Crosswater is a difficult tee shot, but at least you can aim somewhere and shorten it. #6 is all carry.

As for tees that they shouldn't ever use, from #16 at Bandon's way back tee it might not be possible to get to the lower fairway with any south wind.

[Derek_Duncan]

The 4th at Ravines in north Florida is both tough and annoying.  Tough because most of us are swinging a mid- to long-iron for the second on this 422 yard hole that must carry a 50+ yard gorge, and annoying because it must hold a small green that's usually as hard as a rock with no place to play conservative.

Another that stands out in memory is the 14th at the Loveland (CO) municiple course (now called The Olde Course).  As a young player this hole was the epitome of "guts", a 430 yard par four with an "island" green, the coolest thing on the Front Range at the time (1980's).  After a good drive the decision was always whether to take a shot at the green with a 5 or 6 iron or lay up--the shame!  The whole round always came down to this hole.  Now it doesn't seem so formidable--the green is huge and because of the roll and maybe technology the hole plays much shorter.  But for a 14-15 year old, what a test!

[Bob_Huntley]

The second shot at No.1 on the Prince Course at Princeville.

Will someone help me here. There was a hole at Old Warson with a long carry over a lake, it seemed punitive at the time, circa 1970.

[Bob_Huntley]

The second shot at No.1 on the Prince Course at Princeville.

Will someone help me here. There was a hole at Old Warson with a long carry over a lake, it seemed punitive at the time, circa 1970.

[Brad Klein]

Got you all beat. Just played International Golf Club-Pines Course, 8,325 from the back tees. I played half the tees all of the way back. Three craziest forced carries I have ever seen -not one of which I tried:

6th hole, 275-yard par-3, across a deep cut, to a table-top green with no front and steep rise behind. Little room short to miss. (I played it at 189 to a crosswind with a 5-iron.)

16th hole, 277-yard par-3 to a punchbowl green perched on a ledge above a pond and deep ravine, with narrow chute through pines and then two more pines at 200-yards you had to carry. (I played it at 199 with a 7-wood to a cross-wind).

18-hole, 656-yard par-5, with a forced carry threaded through a tiny chute over a cross-water hazard at 250 off the tee. I played it at 550 and easily cleared the water.

[Rick Shefchik]

Brad: I'm not familiar with the International Golf Club. Where is it and who designed it?

The two par 3s you mentioned reminded me of the 11th hole on the Links Course at Grand National, part of the RTJ Golf Trail. From the tips, this course plays 7311; the hole in question is 260 from the back (Purple) tee. It is slightly downhill, but all carry; a pond fronts the elevated green, which falls away both left and right into sand, junk or water. The only playable miss is long. We didn't play the course from the back tees, but we had to try that tee shot. I managed to find my ball, which I considered a triumph.

Addressing an earlier question to Dan Kelly about #16 at Hazeltine (also RTJ): "Is it good architecture?" The implication, I guess, is that it isn't, if the pros have to bail out left towards the creek into a headwind rather than risking a tee shot not clearing the lake.

I think it's outstanding architecture; it's just hard. I don't think we'll see 35 mph winds in Minnesota this August (usually a lovely month here), so the hole is unlikely to cause that much distress in the PGA. But I really don't see anything wrong with one heroic carry per course -- and there is a bailout. Into a strong headwind, members have been known to lay up to the women's tee.

[Brad Klein]

Ooops, silly me.

International Golf Club-Pines Course, Bolton, Mass. A 1958 Geoffrey Cornish design renovated by RTJ in the mid-1980s I think. Golf World recently did an article on it. The course tips out at 8,325 yards, par-77, rating 80/slope 154.

[Evan Fleisher]

btufts had it right...not only the 18th hole at the Ko'olau Golf Club on Oahu, but every other par4 and par5 on the course!

Every tee shot is a forced carry of 150-200 yards over baranca/jungle like conditions...absolutely non-forgiving in any way.

Good thing I lost about a million golf balls the day I played there, I needed to replenish my stock!

[Brian_Belden]

How about #6 and #16 at Pine Valley. Two great tee shots. Bite off as much as you can for an easier approach. Wolf Run in Indianna has a par 3 #12 (I think) that is 235 from the back tees all carry to a severe green sloped from back to front and long is dead.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I just got back from the land of tough forced carries.  For a high handicapper, all of 'em at Sand Hills!  But, as Gene says above, #2 is particularly difficult from the back tees.  I solved that problem by just moving forward one set of tees to my ability level.  Most of SH carries are in the 200-225 range from the backs and 190ish from middle tees.  Some 'look' a lot worse than they are, like the opening par 5 down across a desert chasm of sand and grasses.  #16 par 5-600 yards into wind - bite off tee ball is one of the real exciting tee shots in golf.  Make it as long of a forced carry as you dare, flirting with one of the angriest faces of a diagonal bunker as you may ever see, and another to keep you honest, through the angled fairway!  Again, I opted for the 560yard middle tees and bit off a modest chunk

On the same trip, Wild Horse #10 back tees when wind is quartiering into you from right is one tough forced carry.  

#18 Tobacco Road tee ball gets me a bit puckered as well.

Back in the Sand Hill country, Bayside in Ogallala at Lake MacConeghey has a back 9 with "the" most intimidating forced carries I have seen, including SH.  But, some of it is optical dillusion  The scope of the vast backgrounds confuses the eye.  What looks impossible is quite drivable to get to the short grass.

[ChipOat]

Four things first:

First, I don't think Koolau's original back tees are in use, anymore.  When they were, Evan's right - the whole place was ridiculous!

Second, I'd second #16 at Pine Valley down the right side (the only way you can see the whole green) - it's awesome.

Third, I'd vote for giving Int'l GC an asterisk on this one - the carries do exist but.....8000+ yards??

Fourth, there's no mention of Pete Dye here.  Isn't there a couple on the Ocean Course, alone??

Now for 2 of mine.  Oddly, they're both from a "short" course.

1) The back tees at Merion #12 require a 220+ carry through a chute of trees to carry a creek before a relatively narrow fairway begins.  There's rarely more than a 1/2 club wind to make it more complicated but I always feel pretty good about hitting a good tee ball on that one.

Unlike Pine Valley #16, you do have the option to lay up with a long iron but the 2nd shot then becomes quite problematic given the angle and the size of the green.

Not as dramatic looking as many others, but it sticks in my mind, nonetheless.

2)  Although it's not in regular use, the new "way back" tee box on Merion #18 may be the ultimate in this regard.  That tee forces a 230+ (uphill) carry out of the quarry that is nothing short of scary.  No water and rarely much breeze but "wow", anyway.  Perhaps most importantly, unlike the others mentioned above and elsewhere on this thread, there's no bailout on this one.  No shorter route, no place to lay up - nothing.  You MUST execute - the ultimate in "penal" on the ultimate strategic design.  Neat, huh?

[TEPaul]

Chip asked me to look at his mention of #18 Merion, particularly the new back tee.

Effectively I guess it must be about a 240yd carry (230 plus the end of the quarry is above the tee)! As he mentioned there's no option on this one (unless you call trying to put something on a forward tee an option which I certainly don't).

So, how would one look at a hole like this in the context of options? Just as it is obviously---there aren't any!!

Does this make #18 open to criticism because of that? Some will surely claim that for the same reason they criticize Pine Valley for not being "ideal" because it doesn't accomodate every level of golfer!

Just as was mentioned with Pine Valley in that regard #18 Merion was clearly not supposed to accomodate every level of golfer--certainly not from tees that are beyond their capabilities!

In this regard as to "options" being available for every level on great courses I think a lot more should be known. I think the intent of the so-called "championship" caliber course was one that was not for golfers much below an accomplished level.

It's not that the architects of these courses made any design mistakes, they simply did not intend to design some of these courses (or holes) for less than fairly accomplished golfers and made no bones and no excuses for what they did!

And many times they created holes that were strictly high demand and almost nothing in the way of alternative routes or options! They certainly didn't do this everywhere on those so-called "championship" courses but they did it enough--probably just enough to create a real "one dimensional test" in the context of "variety"!

Merion's #18 was definitely designed in that vein. So were  other holes by Flynn, Tillinghast, Crump etc!

Tillinghast even argued in writing about this type of design with the likes of J.H. Taylor of England! Taylor was adamant that many of these courses, concepts and ideas were just too hard for many golfers and Tillinghast basically retorted that those golfers could then just stay off those courses or get better!!

So personally, I accept what they did and their thinking--a hole like #18 Merion is just a straight high demand tee shot--period! I've even played a lot of good tournaments there over the years, State Ams and Opens and I've always dreaded coming to that hole as I was always fairly short off the tee. Most of the time I've gotten out of there in one piece but not always. One time in a state am (starting on #11) I came to #18 even and made a 13!

But I do respect the hole for what it is--and what it is is just what they intended it to be--one helluva forced carry with no alternatives and plenty to do after that too!!

[texsport]

#17 Giants Ridge, Minnesota-really tough when it's cold. High lipped front of green gives you an extremely uphill lie and pitch shot 2nd if you just clear the water but come up short of green

#14 Waterwood National,Texas-only bailout is to higher      plateau to the right of the green with a guardian bunker just to make sure it's a tough enough shot
  
#12 Blackwolf Run/River-no safe place to lay up

#8 Pebble Beach, Calif.-not just distance-wind off ocean and brutal green make missing the green fatal. Just lay it out over the Pacific and pray

#17 Bluffs At Thompson's Creek,Lousiana-227yds down hill with water surrounding 3 sides of the green-front,right,back

[TEPaul]

I should also add if I'm going to give my opinon of #18 Merion that in the spirit of the way the hole was designed and with the fact that Merion really is going back to 1930 in their restoration and they say that they are going to expand their fairways back to that time too, they should expand #18 and #14 too to what they were. I don't believe they intend to expand their fairways as far out everywhere as they were in 1930 but I would recommend, maybe even challenge them to do it on #18!!

If they did it on #18 back to how it was in 1930, logically they would have to expand #14 back to what it was in 1930 too!! Frankly, if they really did it like the 1930 aerials show it would be an awesome hole and so would #14!

Would it be easier? Of course it would!! But it would still be one of the hardest holes to par anywhere!! If they expanded those two fairways back to what they were they should clear some more trees out on the right coming out of the quarry.

Personally, I would not just say they should expand those fairways back to what they used to be just because they used to be that way, I would say it because if you look across the entire about 80 expanse of what Merion's #18 fairway once was you can tell it is some of the most spectacular golfing ground with its progressive degrees of slope!!

There's something else that really doesn't have anything to do with architecture exactly but if they did take both those fairways back to what they used to be, when you putted out on #18 and turned around and looked back you would see one of the most awesome sights in all of golfdome!!

You'd see #14 and #18 rolling at you like about a 150yd wave of fairway!! It would be one of the most awesome sights in golf--the way it once was!

[RJ_Daley]

9th hole across the chasm to par 3 at about 240 yards, Arcadia Bluffs...

[A_Clay_Man]

Chipoat- There is some Dye in there, Blackwolf run.

For those who think #8 at Pebble is a tough carry, it really isn't. Sure if you want to flirt with right, its all carry, but never would a sane person aim for the right side. # 16 at CPC is also not sooo tough. Not when we're talkin about over 200 yarders. It measures 197 to carry.

[JohnV]

Bob Huntley, that would be #14 at Old Warson.  It is probably only about 175 or so but is still tough because you have to keep the ball near the water on the left in order to be able to see the green.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned #9 at Turnberry yet, I can't think of any tougher ones in Scotland.

[texsport]

Come on! It's only 175 yds from the edge of the cliff to the green at Pebble's #8. Lay it up with a long iron just right of the white chimney in the distance and then hit your +/-190 yd
shot to the green. If you play left you make the hole even harder.

This is a tough hole but not the longest carry.

Texsport

[rhunt]

#13 Waterwood National, Huntsville, TX.  Back in the day of persimmon it was a good 3 wood.  No bail out area.  About 235 yards.

[archie s]

Gotta agree with Mr. Conley, when I was a young lad we played the original BONITA BAY (marsh???) from the tipparoos in heavy wind and it was unmercifully hard!!!!! Twenty years later I'm still shellshocked.

[Joel Pulliam]

Bay Harbor, Quarry, No. 7 (http://www.bayharborgolf.com/fr_courses_qu_07.htm).

Kiawah Ocean, No. 2 http://www.kiawahresort.com/images/Golf_Images/OceanCourse/02desc.gif)

The tee shot on the Ocean, No. 2 really needs to be a long draw to keep it in the fairway. This could be the hardest par 5 I've played.

[RT (Guest)]

#12 The Addington, toughest carry I've ever had w/o there being water, besides #4 at Waterwood National con agua.

[RT (Guest)]

typo error no. 14 Waterwood National, con agua..