Women's courses (Women's clubs)

[Rich Goodale]

That well known DOLL (Doyen Of Lady’s Links), Devereux Emmet, was at it again in 1927 when he found himself in Banksville, NY, after gaining the contract to build the Westchester Women’s Golf & Tennis Club. As the name implies, it was a club for women only and was ….”to be modeled after the idea of the course at Glen Head; it will be designed primarily to suit a woman’s game. The average player will not be faced with the problem of manipulating shots which are beyond her experience, or attempting long carries which inevitably impose heavy penalties.Yet it will be a championship course in every sense of the word. Those who have had the opportunity to play the Women’s National will fully appreciate what this means”.(from a 1927 article by Glenna Collett)  

Sometime around 1940 the name, and operation, changed to The Westchester Golf Club and men became participants. In the 1960s it became an 18 hole par 3 course, but now it’s NLE (housing). The original clubhouse building still exists and it has been transformed into the famous LaCremaillere Restaurant. The ancient caddy house also stands and is now a private residence. (thank you Doris Finch Watson, North Castle Town Historian) 

The original layout can be seen in this 1934 aerial photo ( on the lower left, near the letter “M”):
 
  http://tinyurl.com/93pr6a

Jim

My grandmother used to go to an annual Ladies Senior gathering in Westchester in the 50's and 60's.  Would that have been the place (I had always assumed it was the place where they used to hold the pre-US Open PGA event).

Thanks

Rich

[Joe Bausch]

In the first post of this thread by Tom Paul, he mentions that George Crump said he would build a women's course at PV when the championship course was finished.  Just recently I found an article in print, from the November 22, 1917 edition of the Evening Ledger, that talks a bit about this.  It makes you wonder what kind of course would have resulted if George was able to follow through on it.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

I should also have mentioned the relief course at Sandy Lodge (11 or 12 holes) which was created at the same time as the big course. Unfortunately it didn't survive the Second World War. The land still belongs to the club but no attempt has been made to bring it back into being. Part of it is now the practice range.

[Dale Jackson]

A word about the Formby Ladies course and club.  It is contained within the main course but is operated completely separately.  The course is maintained by a different crew with different equipment.  The Ladies operate a completely separate club with clubhouse.  The clubs have a reciprocal arrangement but they are joined only be geography and both courses are a treat to play.

And both clubs are very happy with the arrangement.

[Anthony Fowler]

I am disappointed that nobody in this thread (or on this site that I'm aware of) has taken a strong stance on gender discrimination, but Tom Paul should be commended for asking his questions.  There is NO justification whatsoever for men's clubs or women's clubs.  The sheer notion that Marion Hollins and Alexa Stirling needed a separate women's golf course that was better suited to their games is laughable.  They probably hit it longer than 85% of golfers in their day. 

Should we have multiple tees and courses of varying difficulty to accomadate different skill levels? Of Course.

Should we have separate tees and courses for women and men? Absolutely not.  By this logic, most of the members on this site should never be allowed to play Pine Valley, Oakmont, or Winged Foot; because those courses are just too long and challenging for you.

I also think it is inappropriate to say that women's clubs were good in that era because "it's an evolving process" or it was a big step for the times.  If prominent female golfers had put pressure on the men's clubs as opposed to building their own courses, there might be a lot less discrimination today.  If prominent male golfers like Crump and Emmet were so "enlightened" (a little sarcasm) as to want to build women's courses, why couldn't they push to include women in the existing clubs.

As people have noted in this thread, we still have quite a bit of discrimination in our clubs today, and I would strongly urge everyone here to do what they can to end it.     

   

[Mark_Rowlinson]

What do the professional architects think? Is it easier to design a course specifically for women or to design a course for men yet making adequate provision and challenge for the ladies? And what of seniors and juniors?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
Women didn't even have the right to vote until 1920 (USA), and a quick look at the history of inequality that existed from then into the present day should show you that the fight has been ongoing, and it's the self reliant ventures (like a golf club of your own, or the LPGA) that proves to everyone (and yourself) that you can stand on your own two feet.

It was a totally appropriate move in its time.

[Anthony Fowler]

Jim, the right to vote is an interesting case in this discussion.  Women did eventually gain the right to vote because of some very brave, tireless individuals (most women) who spent their whole lives fighting for it.  Had they decided to ignore that bigger issue and form their own women's city councils (or something like that), they would have been further marginalized and it would have taken decades longer for women to obtain political representation.

I'm not claiming that membership to golf clubs is as important as voting.  I am only using this issue to demonstrate that self-reliant ventures like women's clubs do not solve the problem of discrimination and may even prolong the problem.

[Bill_McBride]

Isn't there a ladies course at Formby?

One thing I've learned is that women are not really into "separate but equal" and they really dislike forward tees that are obviously an afterthought.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
Women getting together and forming golf clubs predated women getting together and building a woman-only golf course by many, many decades. The issue wasn't about separation, it was about ownership and empowerment. When you have those you force your 'oppressors' to confront their discriminatory practices and deal with you on a more equal footing going forward.

[Anthony Fowler]

Jim, this has boiled down to a strategic disagreement (I hope).  It is possible that women could have obtained equality by forming their own golf clubs that men wanted to join.  Perhaps they could have used this as leverage to gain equal access to men's clubs.  I don't know if women's clubs were a successful strategic move or not. 

However, I do know that gender discrimination is alive and well in golf today.  I have to think that prominent female golfer would have achieved greater gains in this fight by confronting the issue head on, and I don't think more discrimination is the way to eliminate discrimination. 

As I said, I hope this is purely a strategic disagreement.  If you really think we are better off with separate clubs for men and women, then our disagreement is much more serious.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
The red herring you are trying to inject into the conversation smells bad.  I 'grew up' in the bra-burning era and I've actually read Ms. magazine. 

[Tom_Doak]

Mark,

I don't know what the other architects on the board will say -- I'm sure one or two will disagree with me -- but I think there should be more courses tailored to women golfers.  Trying to "design for everybody" always involves compromises, and since men are usually the ones not only designing the courses, but developing them, the ties are always broken in favor of a routing that works best for the men, and the women's tees are a compromise.  For women, darned near every course seems like the products of Tour pro designs seem to 10- or 15-handicappers.

There was a bit of discussion among the developers at PGA West about making the Stadium course without any middle or forward tees, so that only the people who could stand the challenge would play it.  They figured this would be an attraction, and that with four other courses, it wouldn't be a problem for their membership.  Alice Dye nixed the idea in about ten seconds, though.

I have often thought that would have worked great, if they had combined it with building one course specifically tailored for women's golf, as well.  Neither one need to have been off-limits to the other gender; the right players would probably have gravitated to a course suited to their own game.

I'm trying to convince someone planning a big project overseas to consider this idea and to let me build the courses at both ends of the spectrum.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

Tom, I imagine the most frustrating thing must be deciding what a male and female golfer is. We have young male club-members for whom a 300+ yards drive is routine. There are the older members such as I am who barely pass 200. A very few ladies (those at county or international level) may well drive 250 or 270 yards.  But most struggle to pass 150 yards. On a flat course it's not a great deal, but what do you do when you have to cross a river valley or a ravine?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I imagine the most frustrating thing must be deciding what a male and female golfer is. We have young male club-members for whom a 300+ yards drive is routine. There are the older members such as I am who barely pass 200. A very few ladies (those at county or international level) may well drive 250 or 270 yards.  But most struggle to pass 150 yards. On a flat course it's not a great deal, but what do you do when you have to cross a river valley or a ravine?

Mark:

That's exactly the problem.  If the ravine is pretty far across, most courses don't go over it, or else they build a long par-4 with a blue tee on one side of the ravine and tees for everyone else on the other side ... which is pretty disappointing.

But if you were building four or five courses, you could locate the course for the best players around the most severe features, and locate the women's course on another part of the site where the scale of the natural hazards was more manageable.

[TEPaul]

"As I said, I hope this is purely a strategic disagreement."

I think I know what a red herring is  but what exactly is a strategic disagreement in the context of this thread? Would it be the opposite of a penal disagreement? 

As far as a strictly women's golf club is concerned, I would have to say perhaps the most famous of them all was Marion Hollins's Womans National GC in Long Island built in 1923. I happen to have all the incorporation papers and such for it on my computer. Very interesting stuff indeed. But as for its history, it is frankly pretty sad---as a club that is. If anyone does not know what that history was I would be glad to explain it.

[Joe Bausch]

"As I said, I hope this is purely a strategic disagreement."

I think I know what a red herring is  but what exactly is a strategic disagreement in the context of this thread? Would it be the opposite of a penal disagreement? 

As far as a strictly women's golf club is concerned, I would have to say perhaps the most famous of them all was Marion Hollins's Womans National GC in Long Island built in 1923. I happen to have all the incorporation papers and such for it on my computer. Very interesting stuff indeed. But as for its history, it is frankly pretty sad---as a club that is. If anyone does not know what that history was I would be glad to explain it.

Who was the architect of this Womans National GC Tom?

[Marty Bonnar]

Honourable mention to Lundin Ladies - a 9-iron away (other side of the A911) from the 'top of the hill' holes of Lundin Links.
Attributed to Braid, I believe. Fairly unspectacular 9-holer on some interesting land. Nice very ancient standing stones on one fairway. I'm sure that says something about men/women, but I'm not altogether certain what...

http://www.scottishgolfcourses.com/heartland/lundinladies.html

cheers,
FBD.

[TEPaul]

"Who was the architect of this Womans National GC Tom?"


Nominally Devereux Emmet was, but one would have to throw some C.B. Macdonald, Raynor and perhaps a little Flynn in there too, but of course not to ever forget Marion herself and the shot tester she tapped who was none other than the same one Crump tapped for his potential woman's course at Pine Valley----Atlanta's Alexa Stirling!


However, when I asked if anyone was interested in the history of Womans National GC I was not talking about its architectural history; I was talking about what happened to it as a CLUB. Amazingly amongst some of Long Island's really old guard the ultimate disposition of the Womans National CLUB is still a fairly sore subject!

What do you know about Marion Hollins, Joe? To me she was not only one of the most remarkable woman athletes I've ever heard of, she was also in a number of ways one of the most remarkable women I've ever heard of. Definitely in many ways she was way ahead of her times. Some even think she just may've had more than just a little bit to do with the design of ANGC too, not to even mention Cypress Point.

Of course she WAS Pasatiempo and sadly in the end it broke her and probably killed her. There is a wonderful photograph of Marion teeing off the first shot of the opening day of Pasatiempo. Man or woman, if you want to see what the physical dynamics of a truly powerful golf swing looks like wait until you see this one!

Marion Hollins grew up in New York and Long Island and she was always a remarkable globe trotter with apparently a zillion friends. Her dad was Harry Hollins one of the real Wall Street tycoons who's career was a true roller coaster ride. She grew up in a world fit for a king, and golf and riding and coaching (Driving big coaches for sport) and animals were her life (Harry Hollins was one of the founding members of NGLA and Marion played it all the time) but Harry Hollins lost it all in the middle teens leaving the family relatively destitute for that world she came from.

But she carried on and I think it was the 1922 US Amateur she won. She started Womans National in 1923 but by around 1924 and 1925 she was on the West Coast at Monterrey working in conjunction with Samuel Morse even though she remained rapidly bicoastal. She even managed to take a real flyer on an oil drilling deal in the west and make herself something like $15 million which she ended up speculating away.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Anthony,
Here's an oldie but goodie that's truly full of age old wisdom........................................ stone age that is.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1971.0/

This is not a discussion among the Clan of Cave Bear, these are twenty-first century neanderthals.

[TEPaul]

"This is not a discussion among the Clan of Cave Bear, these are twenty-first century neanderthals."


Twenty first century neanderthals, huh? OK. That's a nice remark! I wonder who the poster thinks that applies to or why.


I don't know precisely whether that remark about some of the contributors on here being twenty-first century neanderthals relates to this thread or the one the poster who said it hyperlinked on his post just above. The one hyperlinked was from about eight years ago and it seems to be about Suzy Whaley playing in the GHO professional tour event.

I did read about the first three pages of that old thread that he hyperlinked just above and even though I didn't notice any twenty first century neanderthals on it one thing seems certain----the very same people who seem to be argumentative to the point of being unnecessarily petty in their discussions on here haven't changed much over the years. Fortunately I only count two of them but perhaps fortunately again one seems to have fairly recently departed either of his own volition or involuntarily.

I read about three pages of that old 2002 thread and I must say I sure do miss Tim Weiman and the clarity of thinking he provided on here in some of his posts and one in particular on that old 2002 Suzy Whaley thread I should cut and paste onto this one. Is he still registered and if he is or isn't does anyone know why he's hardly ever on here anymore?    
 
 
 

[Anthony Fowler]

Tom, I imagine the most frustrating thing must be deciding what a male and female golfer is. We have young male club-members for whom a 300+ yards drive is routine. There are the older members such as I am who barely pass 200. A very few ladies (those at county or international level) may well drive 250 or 270 yards.  But most struggle to pass 150 yards. On a flat course it's not a great deal, but what do you do when you have to cross a river valley or a ravine?

Why in the world would you have to figure out what a "male and female golfer is?"  Why can't there be courses and tee for different skill levels and driving distances.  Why would you have to label courses or tee "for women"?

Tom Doak, I think your idea is great, but why would you have to call the shorter, more-playable course the "women's course."  There are probably a lot of men on this site (including myself) that would be perfectly happy playing that course and a lot of women who would want the challenge of your "men's course."

[Jim_Kennedy]

TEP,   

I see that you haven't found a sense of humor while you were away from this site  ,  but I'm happy to see you still are in possession of your pernicious attitude.
 
Signed: the mystery poster.  

[Jason Topp]

I'm not sure it was originally a ladies club, but I have a vague recollection of women being an important part of Turnberry's history.

[Lyne Morrison]

It is a real challenge to meet the needs of all golfers when such an enormous range in abilities exists. My feeling is that to accommodate accomplished golfers at a competitive level it makes sense to have a select group of long courses.

At the same time the majority of golfers do not play the game at an elite level and we should be mindful of this. Why design and market exclusively for women when we could do better and refer to a shorter course in a gender neutral way and engage a broader range of golfers.

There are many reasons why these courses can be engaging to both sexes - women, seniors and juniors may find the course more manageable, long hitters can have a quick hit after work or may choose to work on their short game etc.
 
I’m not sure that calling out any golf course as a 'women’s course' is necessary in 2010  -  or that it is good for the game.

Cheers - Lyne