Armchr Arch Cont... Judges; the moment of truth is NIGH

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie:  oh it's all good from Marty.  I understand it's hyberbole.  Still, I just wanted to try to get him to see this a different way.

In any case, oh heck yeah it will be very cool to see what your system hath wrought.  My point was more toward the TIME involved for each; my assumption being this sketch-up way took a lot of time and effort.  But yes, for those interested in spending the time it would seem to be a GREAT way to see what they are working with so much better.  Great thought.

In any case all kudoes to you, the participants and the judges.  It will all be of great worth to one and all here without a doubt.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

I view this thing a little differently:

1)  Yes even though this site's membership is 1500, are there really anymore than 200-300 who participate on a regular basis?  I think that number is a better baseline.

2)  This project was indeed very time intensive and did require one to know more about computers than just how to turn it on, get online, and post on GCA.com.

3)  Many on this site are very successful in thier careers and work pursuits.  Combine that with family duties, and all the other things one gets wrapped up in, and it makes it even more difficult to devout the time needed for something like this.

4)  Lastly, I don't think 8 is a bad number at all considering its the 1st time using this particular modus operandi.  Even though I didn't patricipate this go around, I sure look forward to doing so next time.

Kalen

[Jim Colton]

Charlie,
with deepest respect, I have to say that I think that 8 replies from a potential database of 1500 is somewhat pathetic.

That being said, I also have to say that the return in no way reflects upon you or your idea. Rather, it appears to me to rather sadly reflect upon the 1450 or so architect wannabes of this site who have no idea what the ACTUAL design and construction of a golf course might really entail.

Good try, but always destined to be a noble failure.

cheers,
FBD.

I'm one of the 8 entries and definitely not an architect wannabe.  Even if I had an inkling of talent in this area, it would probably be a bad career move to quit my day job.  Like Huck, I had the ultimate respect for those that can create something out of nothing even prior to this exercise.  Isn't that why some people get paid to design them and the rest of us pay to play them?  That respect has only grown since trying to etch out a semi-cohesive routing.  I think that's all Charlie was hoping for from this contest.

[Tom Huckaby]

Charlie,
with deepest respect, I have to say that I think that 8 replies from a potential database of 1500 is somewhat pathetic.

That being said, I also have to say that the return in no way reflects upon you or your idea. Rather, it appears to me to rather sadly reflect upon the 1450 or so architect wannabes of this site who have no idea what the ACTUAL design and construction of a golf course might really entail.

Good try, but always destined to be a noble failure.

cheers,
FBD.

I'm one of the 8 entries and definitely not an architect wannabe.  Even if I had an inkling of talent in this area, it would probably be a bad career move to quit my day job.  Like Huck, I had the ultimate respect for those that can create something out of nothing even prior to this exercise.  Isn't that why some people get paid to design them and the rest of us pay to play them?  That respect has only grown since trying to etch out a semi-cohesive routing.  I think that's all Charlie was hoping for from this contest.

Well said Jim - and again, kudoes to you for giving it a shot. 

[Garland Bayley]

...The flip side is that 8 people studied a topo map, learned a new software program, examined the options, and laid out the best 18 holes they possibly could even with so many reasons not to bother. ...

Not me! I took the first 18 holes I could find and ran with them. I knew this old dog would have a lot of trouble learning a completely foreign software package, so allocated my time to that.

I underestimated the learning problems I would have, but with Charlies edits on a couple of occasions I managed to get it done.

What I did see was that this was a software package I would love to find applications for in the future, so I signed up after thinking I would only do the task on paper originally.

I thank Charlie for the opportunity and assistance to learn Sketchup.

[Charlie Goerges]

You're welcome Garland. Yes Sketchup is generally used more for things like this:






and this:






Than for golf course design. In fact the sandbox tools are meant to be used for home landscaping primarily I think.

[Andy Levett]

Sketchup's a terrific program - it's so much better being able to fly around the golf holes in 3D.

The only downside, for me and I suspect a few others, was that it needs an up-to-date computer (less than two years old, say) to run properly. I enjoyed working out the routing but once I tried to draw it in Sketchup all the lock-ups made it not fun anymore and I didn't complete an entry.
 
Regardless of my problems, I think this has been one of the best things on GCA for a while and look forward to seeing the efforts of those with more perseverance and/or technology.

[Marty Bonnar]

Charlie,
I'm very glad you didn't take any offence at my post, as none was surely intended.
I have to pass comment - in my usual curmudgeonly manner - when I see the kind of response REALLY GOOD THREADS LIKE YOURS tend to engender in the good Burghers of GCAville. Indeed, it was they my barb was pointed toward.
The 1450 Architect wannabees (and, BTW, I happily include myself amongst that number these days!!!) are generally here for mere entertainment and diversion, rather than challenge. Isn't that, it strikes me, what the ENTIRE Internet actually is for?? Okay, enough of the deep psycholgical introspection. It's friday, there's the scent of a fine shiraz wafting my way and loads more good GCA threads to scupper!!!
 
cheers,
FBD.

[Tom Huckaby]

Marty me lad, ye do not get off so easy.

Of course Charlie did not take offense.. but then again your barbs were not directed at him.

I took no offense either.. but as one of the 1450 (or is it 1490?), I did wish to reply. And it's still there, above (reply #151).  Your response would interest me.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Marty,

I didn't think I would ever live to see the day you turned into  a GCA bully.  To say i'm disappointed would be a vast understatement.

As such your penance will be Ten Hail Huckabys, 20 prayers to Old Tom of St. Andrews, and 1 round at TOC where you must act/dress/accessorize/and outfit yourself like one of those pesky loud-mouthed, brash American tourists! 

[Marty Bonnar]

Tom, O Wondrous Californian Hyper-Pixie,
I will concede that perhaps 'pathetic' may have been a tad harsh, but I used the word IN ORDER TO achieve a measure of response from my fellow villagers. Perhaps, 'disappointing', 'underwhelming' or 'predictable' may have been better choices, but IyamwhatIyam and there it is.
Boy, what with the missing inflection and nuance, the interweb sure is a really crap place to have a conversation, isn't it!?!?
You know (more than most!) how I love my fellow GCAers like brothers, but sometimes even brothers squabble...
bestest,
MB.
(see, you even got an 'MB' there!)

Kalen,
if I EVER come across as being a Bully on GCA ever, ever, ever again, I will personally buy you a flight ticket to come on over here and kick my ass HARD! (both literally and metaphorically!!!)

[Tom Huckaby]

See Marty, it's all good.  Not that you NEEDED to redeem yourself for me, but you did anyway.

 

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen,
if I EVER come across as being a Bully on GCA ever, ever, ever again, I will personally buy you a flight ticket to come on over here and kick my ass HARD! (both literally and metaphorically!!!)

Bonnar,

I appreciate the offer, but there is no glory in going over there and kicking the crap out of a middle-aged, fat, baldy's, azzz.  Although I would settle for a round at TOC. 

[Ian_L]

Charlie, thanks again for the effort you put into this.  It was really fun to participate.

A couple of things that might increase participation:
1. Providing an alternative to Sketchup, which you kind of did by offering to drape people's files for them.  Maybe if we got several people together it would take the load off you and give those without the time to learn Sketchup a chance to participate.

2. I don't know how this can be done, but lowering the size of the sketchup file would be really helpful.  I wasn't able to stamp my tees and bunkers because my computer would freeze up.  If you could somehow get a larger map to run like your 3-hole experiment, that would be huge.  Maybe separating the map into 2 separate ones or cutting out the OB areas would help?

Again, great job and even with these troubles it was really fun to draw and drape my holes.  I got some surprising results!

[Charlie Goerges]

It has really been my pleasure, thank goodness there is a place on earth where the geeky need to design a golf course can be indulged rather than hidden away in back alleys!

Andy, Ian, I'm going to be examining ways to make the exercise more enjoyable for those without a fancy new machine. Ian mentioned my earlier design exercise. I must say that it would be hard to make an area so large and as detailed as our current contest run as fast the earlier exercise. But in the interest of variety we may just go back to a small area anyway. So I'll be on the lookout for real situations that required creative solutions and let the contestants have at it. (hey, maybe we should have a contest where we redesign #10 at Stanford; or some similar type of situation)

[Brett Morris]

Charlie,

I was one who originally wanted to give this a go, but simply ran out of the time needed to devote myself to learning Sketchup.  Unfortunately, my final draft of my Ph.D thesis; the re-arrangement and preparation of our lives and home for our first baby; and, almost 3 weeks in the US recently (from Australia) attending the GCSAA Conference followed by a study tour of some of the best courses over there left me with no time.  Will definately be better prepared for next's years event.  Thanks for organising, and thanks to the judges.

Did get to see Forrest speak at the show in New Orleans on the contemporary trends in golf course architecture which was great.  And got to walk great courses like Riviera and Cypress Point last week.  Dream come true to spend half a day slowly walking and studying Cypress.

Thanks again, look forward to the next contest.

[Tom Dunne]

The past several weeks were really hectic for me, but I'm hoping to have something to send Charlie...fairly soon (). All the sketchup stuff is also on my old laptop, which I conveniently dropped a few weeks ago, causing it now to crash at the most inconvenient of times.

I definitely don't mind being DQ'd from the contest, since others were able to make the deadline, but I'd still like to send it along...

I'm going to see how much progress I can make this weekend. I'm pretty sure my submission will be primitive compared to others, but still figure I've spent enough hours that I should finish the thing!

[Sean_A]

I too really wanted to give it a go, but not at the expense of frustration I would have suffered dealing with the software.  I ran into problems early and just couldn't be bothered.  I was going to suggest a tag team approach with someone that knew the software, but I figured this would be impractical.  In any case, eight designs is plenty to get a flavour what was possible on the site, so from this perspective I think the exercise can't help but be a success.  Well done Charlie.  

Ciao

[Steve Lang]

  Charlie,

Since the contest should reflect real life, I don't see any need for the contestants' entries to be kept confidential.. I assume a thought to reduce judging bias.. in fact I'd expect that 8 proposals for a gca job would not be uncommon and that a short list would be established for further debate, study, and questioning/defense of submitter proposals before a final selection is made, for whatever reasons the developer can or must live with..

so here's some of my recollection of time spent for this effort..

time spent on the computer, downloading files, using Charlie's tutorials, playing with Sketchup.. ~4 hrs

time to decide to not use Sketchup until a full design was crafted on topo, .. about two double JD's on the rocks.. and a quick nap after a morning 18 one fine winter's day in SE TX..

time spent printing out copies of the topo.. minutes

time drawing readable numbers/tags and coloring on topo elevations.. ~30 minutes

time spent in armchair studying topo, looking for green sites, at land slopes, and distances with a compass and ruler, ~ 2-3 hrs one night watching tv

time for making first routing, 27 holes ~ 2-3 hours on another night, could a play be made over the clubhouse?

time to decide on 2nd routing, 18 holes ~ 1 hour or so at work, hmmm, only a strong bold shot from the range..

time saving topo jpg to pdf format, minutes

time placing routing on topo and double checking using Adobe Acrobat drawing and measuring tools, 1-2 hrs

time to draft narrative descriptions, ~ 3 hrs to play in mind

edits/tweeks to make 3rd routing, ~ < hr, but several times

time to think about and make layer with bunker location marks ~ 2 hrs

time to think about & draft green shapes and slopes ~ 3 hrs

time to integrate bunkers onto routing, ~ hr  (details would be field fit with test shots from pro..)

time to sketch greens, ~ hr  (details would be field fit to the archi-supt-shaper's eye)

time to create card data and format, ~2 hrs

time to package e-files, decide to hit send button ~ hr

So FBD.. the others are not pathetic, just not quite energetic or obsessive or creatively driven enough to get to the finish line.. and submit something.

for better or worse i did not use sketchup..  a tag team approach like Sean thought of would be nice.. like at work.. "I have people for that task " . and then there'd be a couple of more hours for kickin the tires some more with new views..

[Charlie Goerges]

Brett. Listen to me; Thesis Schmesis, get your priorities straight!

Tom, send it in, I'll at least post it on the upcoming thread, and perhaps the judges will demand to see it.

Sean, Team approach works for me, in fact after the results, I'll set up a survey to get suggestions for the most efficient way of doing it.

Steve, Wow; that sounds like a lot of time. Is this everyone's experience? I know Garland spent a lot of time on sketchup vs. routing, but I'm trying to get a feel.

[Steve Lang]

   Charlie,

The traditional armchair drinking time was well spent.. not fiddling with high potential but unruly software.. priceless.

The contest started Jan 2..  with a deadline end of Jan.. then mid Feb.. most time spent in beginning, but nothing really happens without a deadline.. and undivided time spent on an objective.  That's when you realize the time needed to bring all parts to some common level of thought and detail and the value of a team of folks if you want to short circuit that old adage: "you can have it three ways: good , quick, or cheap, but you only get to choose 2"

An hour or so a day actually doing something that's fun and focused is much better than reading about it..  my problem was that we played a lot of golf in the last two months!  Otherwise I'd improved "presentation" of green complexes.

[Charlie Goerges]

The judges are slaving away and so the deadline for them will be extended to an undisclosed date in the near future (i.e. I haven't nailed them down yet). Sorry it's been a while since my last update, I had meant to post something this past weekend, but I was too busy turning 30  .

Now that the big three-oh is behind me (and my inevitable slide into oblivion and death has begun) I should be able to remain more focused (if not more cheerful [insert gallows humor emoticon here]).

[Charlie Goerges]

The due date for the judges is now March 15. Just wanted to let everyone know.

[Charlie Goerges]

Wow, nobody disputed my characterization of 30 as the beginning of the end. Either only people under 30 are reading this thread, or  my characterization is true!

Anyhow, here is a quick tutorial meant to help the judges get the files they need and get them working.

Okay, for the judges, go to this link to download google sketchup:

http://sketchup.google.com/download/gsu.html

Double-click the installer and follow the install instructions.

Now, before you bother opening sketchup, click the orange button in the email I sent you tonight.

The email should look something like this:



That should send you to the entries folder (shown below) which only the judges have access to. Remember that you have to click through from the email to get there.

(If you’re going to hit a roadblock, this is the most likely place. If for some reason you can’t get through, or once you do get through, you browser won’t let you download the file, let me know and I’ll email it. That is much slower for both you and me, so if you can download it directly, that would be best.)



I put zipped versions in so that it wouldn’t take so long to download. Click on the file you’d like to download to display that file’s download page (shown below).



Click the Download link and save the file to your desktop. Once it’s there, right-click and choose Extract All as shown below.



In the dialog box you’ll see something like this:



I suggest deleting the extra \001 or whatever the file name happens to be, because it just creates an individual folder for it. See below.



Then click Extract. Now you’re done. Double-click the file to open it in sketchup.

If you need to learn how to navigate in sketchup, they have good tutorials available under the help menu that are short and clear (and better at explaining it than I am).

[Garland Bayley]

Wow, nobody disputed my characterization of 30 as the beginning of the end. Either only people under 30 are reading this thread, or  my characterization is true!

...

Charlie,

If you want us to read what you write, you have to put it in the original post and not in a later edit. You must know how we cling on your every word and read your posts as soon as our email informs us you have posted. We don't get notification of your edits!