[PThomas]

yet another big time Big ten embarrasment!

[Mike Benham]

Kyle -

No matter how you want to paint the picture, USC scored more points then Penn State which puts a "W" next  to their name and a "L" next to Penn State's ...

 

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle -

No matter how you want to paint the picture, USC scored more points then Penn State which puts a "W" next  to their name and a "L" next to Penn State's ...

 

Exactly right.

BUT and this is what will make this whole thing on topic. In light of reading these newspaper articles about old architects and then reading reports of what I saw today - it makes me wonder just HOW MUCH OF THE STORY is being missed.

Penn State made it way closer than anyone expected before the game, and especially after the 2nd quarter - and the reporting is reflecting that expectation.

[JLahrman]

Kyle, what did you think of the LSU - OSU game last year?  I'm an Ohio State graduate (although not an OSU fan), and your arguments about today's game are similar to a lot of the Bucknuts' feelings about how the game last year wasn't really a blowout...

[mike_beene]

Cincy just whipped VT ,also.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, Tim Cronin receives my award for the fellow that spent the most exciting New Year's Day, unless someone wants to chime in that they spent the day at a great golf course with good friends. 

I think Tim has it just right about the spectacle of the Rose Bowl and all the surrounding activities.  While I root for the Big 10, I was grateful to see a great team in USC put on a college football demonstration, and to see an icon like Jo Pa still keeping on keeping on.  It was all good...

But, to be at Wrigley today, was historic and epic!  I'm thrilled that Chelly shook off the broken leg at 46 years young and got a couple of shifts in, since he grew up practically in the shadow of the friendly confines of Wrigley.

While Cloris Leachman did a fine job in the parade and all, we probably won't see the likes of a college football near-dynasty like USC, and an iconic figure in college ball like Jo Pa, nor a gladiator like Chris Chelios again, in their respective fields and sports.  That all adds up to a great start for 2009 to me. 

[Tim_Cronin]

RJ - Thanks. I'm the luckiest guy around, getting paid to go to things like the Winter Classic this year, and the Rose Bowl last year. Classy move by Babcock starting Chelios, too. A fine tribute to a future Hall of Fame lock.
By the time I left Wrigleyville, which was buzzing from 9 a.m. on (and probably still is at the Cubby Bear and Murphy's, and so on, as I write this), the Rose Bowl Game was in the second quarter, and USC was piling up the points. Even the radio announcers called it a rout, in so many words. Everything Penn State did from that point was courtesy of USC spending house money. After the game, Paterno said, "It would take a heck of a football team to beat Southern Cal the way they played today."
But Penn State was not that team. The last Big Ten team to win the Rose Bowl: Wisconsin, on January 1, 2000. For millennial purists, that means the conference is 0 for the third millennium.

[Ian_L]

So just what does it take for the Pac-10 to get recognition?   Is going 5-0 in bowl games, and beating 4 ranked teams enough?

Ian,  the Pac 10 was 1-5 against the Mountain West this year in the regular season, 2-5 if you include the bowl games.  They are having a great week but beating a Big 10 team is sure nothing to get too jacked up about.  Penn State would have been 5th in the six team big 12 south.

Let's run these down:

Two wins:
Cal, just above average in the Pac-10,  beats Colorado State (7-6) by a score of 42-7.
Arizona, dead middle in the Pac-10, beats #17 BYU 31-21.

Losses:
Washington, WINLESS in the Pac-10 this year, loses to #17 BYU 28-27 on a missed extra point.
Stanford, lower half of the Pac-10, loses to #11 TCU 31-14.
Oregon State, 3rd in the Pac-10, nearly loses to #7 Utah by only 3 points
Arizona loses to New Mexico by 8.
UCLA walloped by #17 BYU.

Notice that 5 of these 7 games were against teams that at the end of the season are in the top 20 in the nation.  Not exactly a cross section of the MWC.  In these games the Pac-10 went 1-4.  Otherwise, the Pac-10 was 1-1, the dud being Arizona's loss.

Also, the Pac-10 representation in these games was mostly in the lower half of the conference.

[Kyle Harris]

Ian,

Mind explaining Oregon State's other out of conference loss?

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

I'm to blame for the loss by my Michigan State Spartans.  I jinxed them by putting up my MSU banner in front of my house and wearing a Spartan shirt.  Every time I do that, they loose.  My bad...

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, my angle was to see who started off the NY with a real shebang, like playing at a great course such as Kiawah.  Any chance you went for a quick loop? 

[Phil McDade]

Shiv,

USC has beat up and bloodied the best two teams in the Big 10....is there really anything else we need to see?

As for Missouri, they may have been pre-season #1 but proved out to be only a semi-decent team so i wouldn't be bragging about NorthWestern's efforts against them.

What's USC's graduation rate?

Come on Dave, you of all people who constantly bitches and moans about people changing the subject?? 

I would suspect the Big 10 teams have better graduation rates, but then thats not what we're talking about is it.  I'm sure teams like Yale, Brown, Harvard have even better graduation rates, but I don't see them going around talking like they are all that and insisting they should be ranked among the elite of CF teams. Most of us saw them play this year...sometimes it ain't there year and the Big 10 to put it bluntly stunk up the joint.  I'd give PSU 7 points and bet on BYU to beat them from the "lowly" MWC.

Compare and contrast here:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/ncaa?ContentID=38485

[Tom Huckaby]

As a life-long Trojan fan and also one who respects the hell out of Penn State, loves JoePa, loves pretty much everything about that program, well... this was a difficult Rose Bowl for me.  Of course I wanted my beloved Trojans to win, but I also wanted Penn State to show well.

And I think I got everything I wanted.  Penn State did indeed play a damn tough 2nd half, and did hang in very well.  Yes, some craziness could indeed have occurred at the end, and it's not completely far-fetched that the Nittanies could have gotten to 38-38, and then OT....

It's also pretty clear to me who the stronger team was, however.  Kyle, even you can't deny that, can you?

TH

[Jeff_Brauer]

Well, I had a good finish/start to the New Year...

NYE day, I woke at dawn and walked (8th time for those who count) the property that will soon be under development in Kansas.  16 degrees and exhilarating!  Found the last few golf holes, flushed a buck, crapped my pants (just kidding, but very close to both that and the buck near the creek......)

NYE night, the Stars whipped the Devils and I attended the game with Jay Flemma, a real delight.

NYD, we played Pine Dunes, a great Jay Morrish course (how nice to see just that name on the card without TW, since Jay did most of the work on all their courses anyway) that I hadn't seen despite a few tries that were foiled by weather.  Weather was perfect for golf, and so was the company.  Only the score wasn't perfect, but who cares.....

You say there was some football this weekend?

[Mike Hendren]

A few points:

Bowls were initially started as exhibitions with all the awards happening BEFORE THEY WERE PLAYED. This ended in 1969 when Richard Nixon declared the winner of the Texas/some other team game the National Champion. Coincidentally, the Penn State and Joe Paterno had just wrapped up their second CONSECUTIVE undefeated season and were jobbed out of the chance to play for a National Title.

Kyle,

As a rabid PSU fan, SURELY you are aware that Paterno let his 1969 team vote on whether they wanted to play #7 Missouri in the Orange Bowl or the winner of #2 Texas and #3 Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl.  They chose to play the lesser ranked team - Missouri and thereby JOBBED THEMSELVES.  By the way, "some other team" that Texas beat was Notre Dame.

Mike

[Kyle Harris]

It's also pretty clear to me who the stronger team was, however.  Kyle, even you can't deny that, can you?

TH

Certainly can't deny it. USC was lights out good in the 2nd Quarter. But I don't think this game was nearly the indictment of "Big Ten Slow" that it's made out to be. Hell, look at the rushing stats. USC couldn't run down the clock in the 2nd half.

[Kyle Harris]

A few points:

Bowls were initially started as exhibitions with all the awards happening BEFORE THEY WERE PLAYED. This ended in 1969 when Richard Nixon declared the winner of the Texas/some other team game the National Champion. Coincidentally, the Penn State and Joe Paterno had just wrapped up their second CONSECUTIVE undefeated season and were jobbed out of the chance to play for a National Title.

Kyle,

As a rabid PSU fan, SURELY you are aware that Paterno let his 1969 team vote on whether they wanted to play #7 Missouri in the Orange Bowl or the winner of #2 Texas and #3 Arkansas in the Cotton Bowl.  They chose to play the lesser ranked team - Missouri and thereby JOBBED THEMSELVES.  By the way, "some other team" that Texas beat was Notre Dame.

Mike

Timing was everything there. The National Championship was awarded BEFORE.

December 6 #1 and #2 would not meet in a bowl, but faced off at Razorback Stadium in Fayetteville, Arkansas, for the final regular season game for both teams. Both unbeaten at 9-0-0, the #1 Texas Longhorns met the #2 Arkansas Razorbacks for a game that would determine the unofficial title. Among the 44,000 spectators that day was President Richard Nixon, who had with him a plaque to award to the "national champion", while an estimated 50 million viewers watched the game on TV. After three quarters, Arkansas had a 14-0 lead. In the fourth quarter, Longhorns' quarterback James Street couldn't find a receiver and ran 42 yards for a touchdown, then carried over the ball for two to make the score 14-8. Then, with 4:47 to play, the Longhorns were on their own 43 on fourth down. Street threw long to Randy Peschel open downfield. Peschel caught the ball and fell out of bounds on the 13. After Ted Koy's 11 yard run, Jim Bertelsen went over to tie the score. The extra point by Happy Feller gave Texas the 15-14 win. Because both teams had been unbeaten in Southwest Conference play, the game also determined the SWC championship, with Texas getting the bid for the Cotton Bowl. President Nixon presented the plaque to Texas coach Darrell Royal after the game [3]. In the final regular season poll, it was 1.Texas 2.Penn State 3.Arkansas 4.Ohio State and 5.USC.

Paterno/PSU had no idea that Nixon would pull that and remember that the prevailing attitude of the time was the Bowl Seasons were still exhibitions.

That is also the Orange Bowl where Paterno refused to accept the Missouri forfeit, correct?

[Tom Huckaby]

It's also pretty clear to me who the stronger team was, however.  Kyle, even you can't deny that, can you?

TH

Certainly can't deny it. USC was lights out good in the 2nd Quarter. But I don't think this game was nearly the indictment of "Big Ten Slow" that it's made out to be. Hell, look at the rushing stats. USC couldn't run down the clock in the 2nd half.

Fair enough.  I do agree that the media is overplaying this as an indictment of the Big 10.

TH

[RJ_Daley]

Jeff, very well done!  Despite your new allegiance to Dallas Stars, as an old Chicago resident, you must get yourself a copy of the historic Wrigley Field hockey game.  (It must be available somewhere to buy - maybe even at the pro concessions at the Stars arena) 

Dave, it is common to play both anthems because many of the players are Canadians.  It was something of a NHL league major event, like the Ryder Cup is PGA where they play multiple anthems.  They do it here for St Norbert games as over half the team and coach are canucks.  Think of it as the same as the biligual French-English rules in Montreal... 

Just be glad "she" didn't sing either of the anthems...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bzo4EoA-kWk

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

My one regret playing NYD was missing that game. I watched the first one last year and was transfixed. I presume this one was just as good.  And yes, I would have been routing for the Hawks.

[Chris_Blakely]

It's also pretty clear to me who the stronger team was, however.  Kyle, even you can't deny that, can you?

TH

Certainly can't deny it. USC was lights out good in the 2nd Quarter. But I don't think this game was nearly the indictment of "Big Ten Slow" that it's made out to be. Hell, look at the rushing stats. USC couldn't run down the clock in the 2nd half.

I was pulling hard for Penn State and Joe Pa; however to me, the difference in that game was the fumble by Penn State on that long pass play (around mid-field) right before the half.  Penn State was driving and if they got even a field goal, they would have had momentum going into the half.  Instead, they do not get at least a field goal and USC gets a touchdown - mimimum of a 10 point swing and possibly a 14 point swing.

As for the media, I thing it is easy to be lazy and recylcle stories / do little to no homework.  Look at the volume of players at skill posisitions that OSU, PSU, Michigan, etc put in the NFL that are fast.  Yest the Big 10 is labeled slow.  As for Bowl Games, the Big 10 I believe was favored in NONE of their bowl games (every game playing a team ranked higher)- maybe Iowa over South Carolina.  They have not lost a game they were favored, as I see it.

[Phil McDade]

Chris:

From my perch here in Madison WI, I get to see a lot of Big Ten/11 football, and have done so for the past two decades. This was one of the worst seasons for quality football in the Big 10 that I can recall. Michigan was embarrassing, Penn St. and Ohio St. are decent teams, but a clear notch or two below the top half-dozen teams in the country, Michigan St. is really mediocre, Iowa isn't much better, and Minnesota and Wisconsin were undeserving of bowl bids. Northwestern had a nice season, but it barely scored more points than it gave up this year in Big 10 play. Illinois was really disappointing as well.

I think there are several factors -- coaching turnover (Michigan, Wisconsin), lack of talent at key positions (notably quarterback), and a lack of innovation in tune with today's game. And just to get some blood boiling, admissions standards may have something to do with it, too.

[RJ_Daley]

For the record Dave, I am partial to the Swedes and their inclusive and transparent and more ethical system of just about everything... which The Economist Intelligence Unit listed Sweden in first place in its index of democracy assessing 167 countries - not the Ruskies; although they have some great hockey players along with Czechs and many emerging Euro countries on the ascendancy.  I'm not so much a fan of the evolving US system of youth hockey where it has become more of a richman's game with all the attendant expense, private clubs, and great financial burdens on parents of youngsters who wish to play, somewhat mirroring the decline in many other US institutions and citizen participations.  

The outdoor game is a National Hockey League production and promotion, with the first 'throwback' outdoor game of the modern era played between Edmonton and Montreal, two of 6 great NHL Canadian franchises, maybe soon to be rejoined by Winnpeg.

Happy New Year - 2009;  I hope there are some amazing changes in store...  

But not this... http://www.drudgereport.com/flashrur.htm

[Chris_Blakely]

Chris:

From my perch here in Madison WI, I get to see a lot of Big Ten/11 football, and have done so for the past two decades. This was one of the worst seasons for quality football in the Big 10 that I can recall. Michigan was embarrassing, Penn St. and Ohio St. are decent teams, but a clear notch or two below the top half-dozen teams in the country, Michigan St. is really mediocre, Iowa isn't much better, and Minnesota and Wisconsin were undeserving of bowl bids. Northwestern had a nice season, but it barely scored more points than it gave up this year in Big 10 play. Illinois was really disappointing as well.

I think there are several factors -- coaching turnover (Michigan, Wisconsin), lack of talent at key positions (notably quarterback), and a lack of innovation in tune with today's game. And just to get some blood boiling, admissions standards may have something to do with it, too.

Phil,

I too am perched in the Midwest and get to see a lot of Big 10 football.  Love the idea that they came up with a confernce sports network.  However, I must disagree from a talent standpoint at least at OSU, PSU and Iowa (we disagree on them being just mediocre - they manhandles South Carolina at the line of scrimage on both sides of the ball and lost several close games this year).  They have players there.  Every year, I see speed guys being taken in the high rounds from Penn State, Ohio State and Michigan.  If the NFL sees talent, then as long as the Lions are not drafting you, there is most likely talent there.  I will agree with you that offensive igenuity is something that the conference is lacking.

Oh yeah as for Northwest and MSU point differentials, the OSU game hurt both of those teams!!!

Funny how many of the genius / inovative coaches are from the midwest, Nick Saban, Les Miles, Urban Meyer, and Bob Stoops.

You may have something on admission standards, but we would have to throw our Minnesota (its tough to build a stadium).

Chris

[jeffwarne]

Cincy just whipped VT ,also.

in what sport?
field hockey?

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